Ep 68: Food Allergies - Building Confidence and Safety for our Kids with Food Allergies w/ Amanda Whitehouse, PhD
In this episode, Destiny talks with Dr. Amanda Whitehouse, a licensed psychologist specializing in anxiety and trauma related to severe food allergies. They explore the complexities of living with food allergies, the intertwined nature of anxiety and allergic reactions, and practical strategies for parents and children to manage these challenges.
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Dr. Amanda Whitehouse https://www.dramandawhitehouse.com/
Dr. Whitehouse is available for therapy with clients who reside in the state of NY. She also provides consultation and education sessions to anyone across the world.
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This is a rough transcript created with Artificial Intelligence (AI) technology. Any mispellings and sentence errors are a result of imperfect AI.
Amanda Whitehouse
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Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Dr. Whitehouse is a [00:01:00] licensed psychologist who works with children, adults, and families managing anxiety and trauma related to severe food allergies. She's been practicing psychology since 2008 and her food allergy education started with her son when he was diagnosed in 2012.
She's combined her professional and personal experiences to create a unique approach to addressing food, allergy, anxiety. In addition to therapy, she offers consultation, education, and speaking events, and just launched her own podcast about food, allergy, anxiety, and trauma called about food, allergy, anxiety, and trauma called don't feed the fear.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Thank you. You're welcome. Amanda, thank you for being here. Um, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I don't, so I have some ideas and it may veer off because, you know, conversations evolve as they go on.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: I'm sure we're going to talk a lot about just what it's like to live with food allergies. I'm wondering if you're opening to talking about also, um, food sensitivities, food sensitivity tests, maybe some [00:02:00] of the differences or how that like, um, food sensitivities. Yeah. How people are being impacted right now around, like,
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: food and fear.
Kind of generalize it a little bit more? Yeah. Absolutely. I think, I mean, I think that's the case for, we really fit into little, um, neat boxes as far as this is my diagnosis and nothing else applies. So, I would be willing to do that. I, as long as I've, you know that I'm not an expert on the medical aspect of that, of course, but
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Totally.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Anxiety, mental health wise, absolutely.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. Yeah. So why don't we start there? Then tell us what it looks like for somebody to come into your office with food and anxiety. Let's say maybe in a hypothetical client, if you would like, what are they struggling with? And then where do you start with them?
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Well, a lot of the times the people that come to me are the parents of the child.
kids who are newly diagnosed. Um, you know, a lot of times when it's adult with food allergies, they have adjusted. Um, but I'm seeing families when it's something newer and the whole family is making this [00:03:00] adjustment to something that's unexpected. And usually the parents are reaching out because It's affecting so many areas of their life that it seems like everything has to change all at once.
Marker New normal
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: It's not as simple as just changing what foods we're eating or how we're shopping or cooking. Um, it impacts so many different areas that the whole family is affected and kind of often feels frozen in terms of knowing where to start making some progress towards a new normal.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: What are some of those other aspects that people might not realize are impacted?
I think,
Marker aspects of life that are impacted
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: yeah, usually the first thing is navigating school and how to keep a child safe at school and to make sure that they're, um, not only that their dietary needs are met, but that, you know, they're not being exposed to something that could be dangerous for them, um, to help them to feel safe at school.
A lot of kids will, if they've had a bad experience at school, be hesitant to go back. Parents are, you know, Concerned with sending them for obvious reasons. Uh, so a lot of times getting kids back comfortably in school or working on a [00:04:00] plan to reduce their school resistance by creating some safety around them is a starting point.
And then of course, a lot of people just, our social lives, all of our activities and our hobbies and our daily life activities involve food. So School often is the first priority, but then also very important is how do we spend time with people? What do we do with family events and holidays now? You know, we just had the 4th of July, things like that.
Oh, we always do this tradition on the holiday and, and we're realizing now that that might not work for us anymore. We might really have to create a new plan and we can't just do things the way we've always done before.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: That makes sense. Your, your podcast is called Don't Feed the Fear. I'm curious if you can tell me about Don't Yeah, what are some of the fears that people come in with and then navigating them, what does it look like to not feed it?
Marker types of fear
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Well, a lot of the kids, um, fears that they're expressing don't necessarily match what we know or what we [00:05:00] find out eventually is going on. So the kids are not necessarily saying, I'm afraid that I'm going to have an allergic reaction. Um, The parents are afraid of that, certainly, the kids are saying things that are more vague, like, um, you know, not wanting to go to school, having vague complaints, physical complaints, um, maybe not even saying that they don't want to go, but maybe just not spending as much time with friends anymore, or saying like, oh, we don't hang out so much anymore, things that are maybe to the child not even in their awareness, that they're related to some fear around avoiding, um, the foods.
If
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: that makes sense. Do you think a lot of their fear is more from having an allergic reaction, or more from even just having to talk about it, to let other people know, because it's hard to, as a kid, to be like, I can't have peanut butter, or I can't have, yeah.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Yeah, that's a good question. I think that one varies a lot between different ages of kids.
So when kids are older, [00:06:00] I'm going to pause because I feel like I just lost your sound. Can you still hear me?
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yes, we're good. I swear I muted myself because I have children downstairs. You have five kids there.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: I
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: thought you, did you say,
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Oh, my, okay. I was going to say, did you add some? No. Okay. . Um, Alright, I'm going to try to remember the question.
Um, We were talking about The, what the, how the kids are.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, if it's about more like the exact, actual allergy or about talking about it and needing to be careful and what that kind of does for,
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: yeah. So I think that that varies a lot depending on the age of the child. Certainly when they're young, um, if they're really young children, obviously they're not vocalizing for themselves yet.
If they're still toddlers or maybe preschools, the parents are doing a lot of that advocacy, that advocacy for them, hopefully. Um, and then the, The frustrations at that age tend to just be more, um, any kind of restriction. You know, if they are having a little snack at [00:07:00] school and they are having to have something different, younger kids might not notice it, but as they get older, obviously they don't want a different treat.
Marker difference in experiences by age / advocacy
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: They don't want to not have that birthday cake that looks delicious at the party and eat a different treat instead. And then as kids get older, then when they do have to start advocating for themselves, like you said, expressing their food allergy, I think that can be For younger elementary school kids and maybe into the upper elementary, that's a difficult process, right, to speak up.
Their parents aren't there, they don't have as much supervision or as much proximity, so they are having to say it for themselves a little bit more, hopefully with lots of supports around them, but that's a new thing for them to have to do. Many kids aren't comfortable speaking up to a teacher or an adult, right, and they're too, They're kind of taught not to talk back, right, to grown ups.
So if someone says, sit down and eat your snack, it might be difficult for a child to say, this isn't the right snack, or I can't have this treat, or does this have, you know, peanuts, does this have eggs, whatever their allergen might be. And then that tends to, once we get into that fun middle school age, [00:08:00] and into high school, and I think that carries into adulthood.
People don't want to stand out. They don't want to draw attention to themselves. They don't, especially around that middle school age, they don't want to be different in any way. So sometimes they have hesitation to then speaking out or wearing a medical alert bracelet or carrying an EpiPen that might be visible.
And then I think sometimes the hesitation, um, plays out in that way. Unfortunately with kids, maybe not wanting to follow through on whatever steps it might take to keep them safe in terms of what they're eating or carrying their EpiPens because they don't want to draw attention.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: So a lot of the work you're doing is really around, um, identity, and, well, I should ask, are you working more with the kids, or are you working with the parents?
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: I
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: work
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: a combination of both. Um, typically I work with the parents on creating the structure, the plan, right? All of the, the setup that we need around the child, regardless of the age. And then I work a lot with the kids on the internal aspect, both the cognitive piece. And then I talk [00:09:00] a lot about the nervous system piece because the, you know, the, immune system and then the, the vagus nerve, which, you know, controls our anxiety response.
Marker cognitive tools ; nervous system tools
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: The vagus nerve is also very closely entwined with the immune system reaction. So even a lot of times if we work with the child through the thoughts and challenge a thought or, or reframe it and give a different perspective, that nervous system is already sensitized because of the immune system, you know, over sensitivity, so therefore their anxiety reactions are too, and it's very physical in a lot of these kids.
So that piece I try to do with kids and parents together, because it helps to have both of their nervous systems in a really nice, calm, and regulated state, so that they're not feeding into each other's anxiety and staying calm. So it's good to have a combination of parent and child work come at things from all angles.
Marker parent work vs chlid work
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, when you're talking about, you know, challenging Thoughts, um, regulating, calming the [00:10:00] nervous system around a very real threat. How do you do that? How do you talk about, what kind of thoughts are you challenging, um, what is the thing that you're doing to help calm something around a real threat?
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Right.
Which I think is what's different for us as therapists, right? Because so much of what, when we work on anxiety, we're talking about things that are not a real threat or maybe they're a highly exaggerated threat. Most people's anxieties are about very, um Exaggerated fears, exactly. Things
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: that won't happen, but they could.
And so therefore, we, yeah, we feel that.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Or if they happen, they're not as bad as they're perceived. But yes, in this case, we really do have to treat these fears as dangerous as they are, because the reality and the possibility is 100 percent there. So, there is, um, a difference in the way we address the thoughts.
We don't challenge the thought necessarily if it's, um, You know,
Marker cognitive tools
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: something that could actually happen. I find that creating that sense of safety [00:11:00] first, before doing any cognitive work around it, um, is the most helpful thing. So, I think a lot of times in order to feel safe, it's those basic things. Let's, let's come back to the basics.
What do we know here about if you're safe? You know, and then explore whatever the scenario might be as far as Maybe they were having fear about going over to grandma's house for a dinner. Well, you know, grandma doesn't have any nuts in her house anymore. Um, and, and your mom and grandma made the food together.
So we know that all of the food is safe for you. And we established kind of those, the factual information that reminds the child that there's safety. But that doesn't fix the anxiety, of course, when the nervous system is already, you know, Or, you know, overstimulated or reactive. So then, I do a lot of that vagus nerve, that nervous system work as far as, you know, regulation, um, lots of body work and awareness on physical symptoms and kind of the exercises that help to reduce the [00:12:00] reactivity of that vagus nerve to switch the fight or flight system on.
Once that's in a better state overall, then it comes time to really work on those thoughts a little bit more. So now let's think about that fear about if you were going to have a reaction, um, at the birthday party at grandma's house. And then sometimes it was just as simple as something that's factual.
Marker addressing the fear
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: I didn't, you know, like we said, maybe the child didn't know that mom and grandma have coordinated to make sure that all the food of the party is safe for them. But sometimes then once their body is in a little bit of a safer, calmer state, the cognitive work can take the kids into identifying what really, what specifically was driving the fear that was an exaggerated or an unlikely scenario.
Like I was afraid, um, you know, my, I know my cousin likes to eat Reese's. I thought that they were going to bring them and, you know, then we can work on this specific fear once we've got the body in a state where it's receptive to it.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: That
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: makes perfect sense. Um, cause yeah, the reality is like cousin might come [00:13:00] with some Reese's.
Um, and so. What other parts of this, I'm imagining, um, where the child looks to for safety if they do become fearful again when they're there. So you've already done the cognitive work. They're cool. They're good. They're like, hey, we're going, I feel safe. But then you can sometimes get into the situation and all that fear ramps back up.
So I'm curious, do you role play? Do you, like, what do you do to help? And if you have any tips, Specific tips around vagus nerve exercises that you love to go to so that you're your go to exercises. I'd love to hear them
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Yeah, I think there's so many things with a scenario like that when we've done like you're describing We've done the work, but they go and they they still have some difficulty We would expect that right because the vagus nerve the nervous system is Always scanning the environment to determine whether we're safe and it's reacting or not on its own, unconsciously, to whatever it has already learned is danger.
So regardless of that plan that we've set up, whatever [00:14:00] we've informed the child the scenario will be, that we've done to make sure that they're safe, depending on what the triggers were in the past, the nervous system is still likely to respond. So a lot of that is also preparatory work in terms of knowing, let's remember, let's remember, let's, you know, think what you're going back to as far as what your bad experience was before.
And then sometimes we can trace it back to the specific thing. It might not be a thing that actually caused a reaction. It might just be a scenario when there, when there was fear and nothing bad happened, but the child is remembering that that's sticking in the memory or in the nervous system's memory of, of reactivity.
So then we can kind of anticipate, we can prepare them You might feel a little bit anxious when someone opens the pantry and gets out. You know, these things are when your cousin arrives, who's always, you know, eating this or that, that's dangerous for you. We can anticipate and then we can talk about some strategies.
So
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: those are such good examples like opening the pantry, you know, as a mom, I could imagine, you know, [00:15:00] going into this party, I've prepped my kid. Now I just want to think about having fun or talking to my, my own mother and, you know, cooking food and I don't want to worry about it. Right. And then. Poor baby's scared and they see someone open, open the pantry and last time that happened mom had freaked out saying no, no There's peanuts in there you know, whatever like the example is but it's just that memory will trigger that response and then now as mom It's my role and my job to come and co regulate with my kid Which can be hard when you just want to break for a moment and when you live with a chronic condition of any kind There's no breaks really.
Marker parental struggles
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: There aren't and especially times like that Um That used to be the break for mom, or we expect it to be the break as mom, as a family, um, and unfortunately not just in scenarios like that, but anything that, that used to be or should be or often is associated with safety for many people, like, Oh, I'm a mom, we're going to my mom's house and my mom is safety for me.[00:16:00]
now it gets flipped and where you, you would feel safer actually might become the opposite and might be a more, um, anxiety provoking state because there are so many more variables and just so many, uh, less things that we can control in a different environment. Um, and so as you said, then that can become even more activating as you get used to this new life.
If it's new for a family where, Oh gosh, you know, Christmas used to be the one time I could just show up and we could eat and now it's twice as much work for me and, and I can't relax. And obviously the, um, As you mentioned, like the state of the mom and that co regulation, even if the child wasn't thinking that there was something going to happen, or if there wasn't a trigger that set them off, if mom is not calm, the child is going to feel that, and their nervous system won't respond, whether they're aware of it or not.
Which is not to put the guilt on the moms, because we know this, and then moms say, I know I'm supposed to stay calm, and I say to them, it's not that simple. Like, you can't just decide you're gonna stay calm when your nervous system cooperates with that intent.
nervous system tools
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Exactly, right, and then we can bring them [00:17:00] together on that, like, just like it's hard for you, your kid also can't, and so you're actually in this together, you're both learning how to regulate when your anxiety spikes, um, and again, like, it's a, it's a, it's an appropriate fear, it's a rational fear, so we're not trying to pretend the fear doesn't exist, it's more about regulating in the presence of something that's potentially dangerous.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Definitely. Yeah. And I think then while we're trying to do that, you asked about how do we calm the vagus nerve? How do we regulate the nervous system? And everyone knows the concept, right? Of like relaxation and deep breathing. And, um, I talk a lot with my clients about how we know that as parents, but again, if we're not in a regulated state and we, in our, out of our anxious, state, say to our kids, like, just take a deep breath.
We, we turn this great tool that should regulate our bodies into another trigger because we, maybe we're not, not practicing at home. [00:18:00] We're not doing it regularly. And we only say it to them when everybody's already worked up, someone's stressed, you know, we might try to be calm when we say it, but if we're not calm, that is still sensed by the child.
So I think we, we know what to do, but I think there's more for everybody to learn in terms of how to do that in a way that's actually effective and not, having the opposite impact that we want it to. So we talk a lot, you asked about, um, you know, visualization too. So I try to compare the breathing with that and picturing how the event's going to go, you know, imagining with the child and the parents, imagining all of the steps that have been taken, what they're looking forward to and using the breathing then so that the body will, you know, then associate that breathing with that safe visualization, with that rehearsed, um, you know, scenario that they're going to play out on the day of the event.
And then it can be more effective if something happens where we start to get worked up.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: I think a lot about, I work a lot from an attachment lens. And so I often go into kind of [00:19:00] what our attachment styles are, as well as like how we were raised and, you know, Not from a, not from like a what happened to you, but how, how you were treated or how people reacted around you when something happened.
So if mom is scared all the time. I'm likely gonna be scared all the time, and again, it's not about mom shaming, this is, if you're a mom and you're listening to this, I have two kids under three, like, I, I'm with you, and I, and I work on my own stuff all the time, every day, I work on my own stuff with my kids, um, you know, that come up, and so it's more about just recognizing this as, this is the work that comes with the job, that's how I, I view it, that's what helps me, so it's not, again, it's not about like a, a shame, it's more about, I didn't know when I, like, well, I think I did, I did.
I trained a lot to become a mom before, before I, um, became one. But it still hits you out of the blue when you actually have kids, like there's new things that pop up that you just did not, or you thought you were going to be able to handle it [00:20:00] well, because you worked on it so much before you had kids, and then the anger rises, or the anxiety rises, or things still happen, and so really just normalizing this does happen, and I think because we often lack the village type community, that, you know, We don't have people to lean on.
We don't have people pouring into us and we still need that even when we're moms. So I'm just, that's where I go with it. I'm curious your thoughts on that. And then if you have other kind of ways to conceptualize this, that you teach your clients often.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: I love that. And I think that, um, you make such a good point back to about not creating guilt for moms.
Um, the more we learn about attachment and, and again, then how closely tied that is to our nervous systems and how we react to everything in the environment, we can start to understand why, again, something that, why am I reacting in this way to something that cognitively doesn't make sense? Like the, I, Why, why does this cause fear in me?
And sometimes it's not about our child or a bad experience with our child's issue that has happened. It goes so deep [00:21:00] back into our past, and we, no matter how much we prepare, no matter how much we educate ourselves, we can't, I mean, we can with, with fear. Very conscious work, but we can't just unravel that we can't think it away by learning and educating in advance So we no matter how much we prepare all of us who are in the mental health field think we're gonna be such great parents Right because we have so much knowledge that we're taking into it None of that takes away this this piece of how our nervous systems just want to keep us safe all the time in ways That are well intended, but obviously are not helpful.
But the other thing my mind was going in so many directions from what you asked. Um, but then I think what you mentioned about community and having that support around us is another big piece of it. So in terms of then how does that attachment stuff play out in the relationships that we're That we had, that we're trying to develop, with the support that we need around mothering.
Um, and then all of that is also laden with this attachment [00:22:00] stuff that we bring into all of our relationships. That's so complicated.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: It is. Yeah, what comes up for me, too, is like the preparation work. It gives you that cognitive knowledge, but like you said, it doesn't prevent the fear, the anxiety, sometimes the anger, the, the reactions that we didn't want to have, we still might have.
But the preparation does still help because then you can look back on it and say, okay, I already have that foundation of knowledge. But now I, and this is where the somatic, the body piece I think comes into it, the polyvagal stuff, the somatic experiencing is my lens. What's happening in your body that's now triggering that response?
So rather than, well I already know this, so I shouldn't do this. And it's like, but your body feels threatened in this, and this is how you respond when you feel threatened. So I also like to think about it like, You know, the stuff you prepare for a marathon, you buy the right shoes, you understand pacing and what it feels, what it [00:23:00] means to like start fast, start slow or start even like you learn the rules.
But then once you do it, nothing can prepare you. Also, like, labor. That's probably a better example if we're talking about moms. All of the birth planning in the world, you do all of the Lamaze and all of the yoga, and whatever it is you're doing, and nothing prepares you for that vortex that you go through when you're actually pushing a child, or even if you have a C section, like, being in the hospital, not knowing what's happening, like, there's so much that goes into labor that you, again, can mentally prepare for, and then once you go through it.
Everyone will tell you who's been through birth like nothing could have prepared me for what that felt like
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Yes, and how I think it's such a good metaphor too in terms of how Physiological it is like if you decide you know many of us go into that with all of our birth plans and our good intentions Right like I'm going to have this I'm going to choose this kind of birth that Physiological process is going to unfold [00:24:00] regardless of your intentions or desires or your thoughts and it's it's so physical that that really the The mental piece of it or the knowledge piece of it has so little, I'm not saying you can't be prepared like you mentioned, but, but really it just runs its course in the way that the body is unfolding that experience.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. And the, a lot of the polyvagal research, I don't know if this is like concrete or, you know, I think sometimes you have to take these numbers with a grain of salt, but they say 20 percent of like how we can control what we feel is top down. So using your thoughts and 80 percent is bottom up. So that's.
What is actually happening in your environment? What are you physiologically feeling? Like, you pick up on things, you know, everybody knows, I think, that feeling of like, it feels like someone's behind you, but no one's, no one's there. You turn around and they're not there. Like, Your spidey senses were turned on from something.
It may not have been a person back there, but like your skin will prickle or your hair will stand up or something like [00:25:00] that wasn't a conscious thought. A lot of times that happens first. And so, um, I think, yeah, going in more into the polyvagal stuff, it's like, we are learning how to relax so that when something does happen, we can implement these skills, but a basketball player doesn't just get on the court and like, he's good to go forever.
He keeps training. He trains. Or she trains, or they train every single week, month, year, um, yeah.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: And I think that, to go back to your other great metaphor about training for a marathon, I think this is how I frame it for a lot of my clients, in terms of how you're discussing top down and bottom up, and you don't know how your body's going to respond.
on marathon day, but you're going to have a lot of training runs along the way. And, you know, we think of things in that way. And I frame it to the parents that I work with in terms of like the, the marathon for us is getting our kids ready to go out into the world independently and safe way down the road, right?
Right now, we're still [00:26:00] here. It's all practice. It's all training. Gradually, the challenges increase, right? And with each one, it's a, Consider it a training run and then we can kind of reverse engineer it and we can trace it back. I didn't have a great run today. Well, what was it? You know, was temperature was it?
We would analyze all of those details. We can do that with our body's reactions as well. So, you know, we thought we were all prepared for this event at school and then here's what happened. Well, let's walk back through it and let's say Let's, you know, use those somatic, um, approaches. Let's figure out what happened in the body.
And then we practice noticing, Oh, you know, we never talked about that sensation in the body before. And what's the message that that's sending you? Let's start looking out for that and find some other scenarios where that sensation arises. And then we start to develop a connection with that particular body response.
And then just little by little, we trace it back to the, the goal is for us to, you know, prevent any problems ever, right? And, [00:27:00] and to minimize the anxiety and not to let our body get triggered by any of these things. It's not realistic, but we can back it up little by little to where we do exert some control over it by developing that close connection over time.
Not, not just, we're gonna prepare it, we're gonna have it all ready, and then we're gonna roll it on out, and it's gonna take effect. It doesn't develop in
that way.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, no, it makes me think too. One of the ways that we develop safety is through familiarity. It's why people can be in a bad situation and find it incredibly hard to leave.
Even if they're unsafe in the situation, their nervous system is picking up safety cues because they're used to the home that they're living in, or they're used to the smells in this environment. Um, my dad lives in the. In the, um, in a hospital, um, and, like, the idea of even, like, one day maybe moving his care into my home.
We used to talk about that a lot. We don't anymore because, and I just think, like, the sounds in the hospital, the smell of the hospital. Now, granted, he's not in an unsafe situation there, so I should, I didn't want to [00:28:00] clarify that. I didn't mean to make it sound that way. But, still, um, to, you know, be close to his grandkids, that would be a great experience.
And, yeah, I think it would be way too overwhelming because we get. with these things around us. And so that's for good and for bad. Um, so we're building familiarity so that we can then, when something is happening, there's so many pieces, like we know how to use our EpiPen. We know how to, like we know the protocols that need to happen.
Um, we bring familiarity as much as possible so that when something does go wrong, cause life brings problems, we can stay grounded. So again, it's not about like never being grounded or being, um, perfectly zen throughout a really hard situation. It's actually about pulling on your resources and practicing for that ahead of time.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Definitely. So with so much practice and so much preparation, because obviously, familiarity takes time and repetition to develop. It's a gradual process. And so, I think, you know, that, that is such a good way to describe it in [00:29:00] terms of thinking of that process with your father, in terms of what would that look like and how would we get there.
Because you're building it over time with the recognition of, there are some needs met in this environment. You know, we have to balance it with what might be positive or beneficial or what, you know, in this new environment that might be missing, but might be adding something else. And I think that applies to what we're doing when we're managing food allergies or food sensitivities, too, is like, sure, we could stay home all the time.
We could eat every meal here. We could be totally fine. safe from our food allergies for the most part, but then, you know, what, what aspects do we want to work into our lives? And then how do we slowly build back that familiarity, create a new environment where we want to add in some of these other factors too, and so let's balance it out and meet the needs, you know, somewhere in the middle.
nervous system tools - familiarity
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. It's scary to have something that could happen that again is a real, we mentioned earlier, is a real threat. [00:30:00] Um, What are, what are some, what are some of the other things that you do with parents and children, um, just to help them navigate, like, anything logistical, like, you know, how, like, what, what are their safety plans?
What does a safety plan look like when you're living with a food allergy?
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: It can be really different for a lot of different people depending on, because as you know, some people might have one food allergy, some, some might have multiple, some, um, might be very sensitive, some people might have no history of actual reaction, and obviously we still have to treat it.
safely and, and seriously, but their doctor might give different specific recommendations versus someone like some of the kids I know are so reactive that they can't go to a baseball game because the peanuts in the air will trigger a reaction or things on surfaces. So obviously like many medical, you know, action plans or treatment plans, it's so individualized to the person.
But of course the number one thing is always, always, always to have epinephrine, to [00:31:00] have two, um, two epinephrine. injectors, um, because sometimes people need more, sometimes they misfire. Um, so that's one of the places that I start with all families is creating a plan specifically around the EpiPen and working or around the AviQ.
safety plan
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: I shouldn't say brand name. We use lots of different ones, but, um, That's an obvious, or initially, that's a big piece of the fear for people. So, they don't want to talk about the EpiPens, they don't want to practice using them, they don't want to show their kid because they don't want to then have a conversation about the child, why do I need this, and is there a needle in there?
And there's all this fear, a lot of times among the parents, that they're going to create more fear in the child. But we, we feel safer when we have a plan and we have knowledge and we know what to do and we know that the epinephrine is the number one thing that will keep us safe no matter what variables we can't control on the outside.
So that's a bit, one of the biggest pieces of work that I do around changing that perspective [00:32:00] and, and facing that fear and challenging some of those, you know, again, we talked about what's irrational and we all have some, some, Unhelpful thought patterns around things that we can work through and that's one of them like that We don't we don't want to talk about the epi pens we don't want to you know, and we want to change the language around the way we the way we talk about them and and Things like that to shift the way we see it.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: That's really helpful. I think such a good example. Yeah. Um Yeah, especially depending on the age of your kid not knowing, you know, and how do you instill importance without instilling like You The fear of God in them kind of, you know, that's kind of how a lot of us were raised. Like you better listen, you better listen on the first time or else this gets into like family dynamics and discipline and the way we raise our kids.
And you know, it's not just, like you said, it spills over. It's not just about the food allergy. It's, it's all of the things. So how do we teach a child something? We talked about repetition earlier. That's where I always come back to. You don't [00:33:00] have to, you don't have to make them understand the first time you talk about it.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Right, and the more we repeat it and get that language just into their heads, they, they may not remember how to say it, or they may not retain the information the first time, but again, like you said, building that familiarity, um, over time just makes it then become, oh, I do feel safer when I just say, You know, at the restaurant, I have these food allergies and, or, or when I, you know, do this routine as far as, Oh, we double check every time we leave the house, we double check for my epinephrine.
Like those routines over time build that feeling of safety, even though initially they feel, they feel scary. They're scary.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: How have you, have you noticed a shift in culture in our society now that there are so many food allergies? sensitivities that are not actually, like, the types of sensitivities that would never give you an allergic reaction.
I have found that in a lot of, um, restaurants, some staff will be, like, roll [00:34:00] their eyes, kind of, at a food allergy. On the other hand, there's so many food allergies, maybe people take it more seriously now, too. Like, what have you found with that?
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: It's hard to say you're right, though. It's gotten so complex, and I think, I think it's both.
I think it's all of those things and I think really there's a lot of, um, us having to know how we navigate things and knowing the cues that we get from, from whatever the scenario is from the staff at the restaurant. Do they have a policy? What does it say on the menu? What does their website say in terms of how, what kind of attitude am I walking into here?
And, you know, I think, you know, You can find a mix of both of those things and I think we work a lot, the families that I work with, on gauging and then listening. Again, I'm in touch with my body. What's, how do I feel when that waiter gives me the response about how they can handle my food allergies here at the restaurant and you know, following through, not being afraid to say, you know, follow, follow [00:35:00] up.
Well, you know what? Actually, I feel more confident if I could talk to the chef or if I can talk to a manager or whatever it might be. And that's not to say that All of the, you know, it's not just, oh, people with food allergies should be taken seriously, you know, and not other people, because I think, what we find in the food allergy community in terms of what you're saying about people rolling eyes, like, everyone says they have a food allergy, but it's not an allergy, it's not dangerous, most of these people just, I don't like that thing, or they're trying to be healthy, or it's trendy to be gluten free dairy free, whatever it is, really, all of those things should be taken seriously, because we all deserve to be in good health, whether it's an immediate, urgent risk, or whether it's more of a chronic symptom, more of a damaging over time kind of food intolerance or, or, you know.
condition. I, I am rewording it or I'm revisiting that in terms of my response because I want to make sure I emphasize I think we all deserve to be taken seriously. So it's not just no, no, no, my food allergy is a [00:36:00] real food allergy. Really, ideally, all of these facilities and restaurants should be not rolling their eyes at anyone, whether it's a food allergy or an intolerance or a dietary choice.
But I don't think we're there yet. I do think there's some progress though.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Good, good. That's good to hear. Um, I feel like I don't grow out to eat anymore because I have two top two babies.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: It is not enjoyable. Food allergies and intolerances aside. It's like spending so much money just to not enjoy your meal.
Exactly. You'll get there, you'll get there. I had three little boys all at once too, and they're getting older now. It happens very quickly and it does shift. But, you know, on that note, we and our family have found, even though the kids are getting older and we can have an enjoyable experience at a restaurant, having food allergies and navigating this in the way that we have has kind of created a different dynamic in our family, and we, we prefer it.
eating at home for the most part. We prefer healthier foods. My [00:37:00] kids will look forward to something like, I'll never forget the first time, um, that my son had a pizza party at a friend's house and he, um, you know, was so excited. It was a New Year's Eve party. And like, I talked to her, you know, she made sure everything she's ordering is safe.
We check with the restaurant, they're going to have pizza and wings and we live in Buffalo. So pizza and wings are like the thing that he knows that all the kids eat. And he took his first bite. First bite of the pizza. And he waved me over real quick, like real quiet and trying not to draw attention to myself.
He's like, mom, this pizza isn't very good. And I was like, yeah, you're used to like homemade fresh pizza dough, honey. Like pizza from a restaurant that's been, you know, made two hours ago. By the time it makes it here on delivery is just not as good as your dad's homemade pizza. So a lot of that actually for us has shifted into, we don't really care if we eat out that much anymore.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Are you open to talking about. You can say no, absolutely, or like division of labor and what it's like to figure out how to cook for your family [00:38:00] and, and it sounds like you guys enjoy it now. Was it always that way or did you learn how
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: to make
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: it that
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: way? It wasn't. I'm happy to talk about it. And it's, it's, I think it's a challenge in a lot of families, um, with, you know, again, food allergies or any kind of chronic medical thing where the division of labor.
Yeah. doesn't always fall in a way that that works well for everybody. Um, and so in our house, if you want me to share personally about kind of how we've been navigating it, it, My spouse was the one who was working full time, I was doing more of the child care and working part time, so that was always our intent, was that I would do more of the household duties because I wanted to be home with the kids, we wanted, you know, not to have to do daycare and things like that, but then, yes, it naturally kind of fell into the, into the pattern where now that we're managing all these food allergies and I'm the one doing it all the time, I, all the knowledge is in, not all of it, but most of the knowledge is in my head.
I'm the one who checked the labels. I'm the one who learned how to call the [00:39:00] companies to check for cross contamination. I'm the one who's doing the recipes. I'm the one who, um, you know, checks the, the EpiPen dates and puts the, the action plans in the pouches and all of that stuff tended to fall on me because I was the primary child care person in our house.
So in terms of, um, You know, we were talking about cooking and the food piece of it, it got very specific in my house where I said, here's what I need, and I think we need to do that in our relationships, just really directly, here's what I need. I need for you to have, and we started with one, I said I need you to have one meal.
That you can make, that on a work night for me, or if I have something to do with friends that you feel comfortable with, and, and that becomes the plan. And then we made it a thing. We celebrated it. So I used to make the pizza dough in my house, but he decided that that's the thing he wanted to get really good at.
And he wanted the kids to grow up thinking of dad's pizza. And now he makes the best pizza. And I said, I don't care if you make pizza once a week, I will eat it every [00:40:00] Friday. I'll eat the leftovers every Saturday. But yeah, now they call it daddy's pizza. Even though He doesn't always make it anymore. But even that one step was such a relief, you know, in terms of moving in a better, a more balanced direction.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Having one meal, yeah. So you know at any given time there's always pizza. It's ingredients in your house, and you can go out literally, if you need to go out twice that week, then pizza's for dinner twice that week. Pizza works.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Yes. And we're well beyond that now. I don't mean to be critical of my spouse because he does a ton.
Um, yeah. But it's not
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: getting started. And so then now, maybe you can talk about how you've evolved too, just so people can see like this journey does get easier, but yeah.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Yes, and that's a good way to put it in terms of evolving because it wasn't, it didn't start out that way. But what happened for us and what happens for a lot of families managing food allergies is that, as I said in the very beginning, when you get that first diagnosis, it's like everything shrinks back and your little bubble shrinks to this tiny little area of safety and what you know.[00:41:00]
And I mean, we came home from the hospital and before we even brought, our son in the house, we took a garbage bag to the kitchen and went through the cupboards and wiped all the surfaces and threw away, you know, I don't know what percent, but it sure felt like it was like 75 percent of the food in our kitchen.
So it's not that my spouse was like always, Oh, whatever you do all the cooking. It was that we just. Reined in what felt safe to such a small thing and it takes time to expand that again. So working in, you know, each of us doing different tasks and expanding that back out over time is just a process of one thing and the next and and now you, okay, now you try a restaurant with him and you try the ordering and now, you know, here's how we have to do the grocery shopping and the checking ingredients.
It just is a, process that takes a long time to expand back out, but it does happen. And it, I, this is the thought that I [00:42:00] lost earlier that I wanted to touch on. It's not a one directional process either. It's not linear. Then something will happen. There'll be a, there'll be a scare. There'll be a, maybe a confusing incident.
Who knows what it is that then, then maybe we back up a little bit and then maybe, you know, we were talking about like as a mom, Oh, I felt so safe. And how do I stay there? Well, then you're going to backtrack and then you, you know, Maybe get a little bit better and maybe the next time you recover a little bit faster in terms of here are the things we do to get back on track, here's, here's where we stay in our safety zone for a little while before we step back out of it again.
And as we talked about, you talk back through the problem and you evaluate. And then you move forward with the new knowledge that you have. That's all any of us can do with anything that we're managing. So it's, I just say that so that we don't have these expectations on ourselves as parents, that we just, we keep moving progress, and it gets better and better, and if, if something, you know, disrupts that, or we fail, then that's not how anything works in life, and we have to be really forgiving of ourselves for knowing it's, it will come and go.[00:43:00]
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, yeah, I think it, and it's so, it's, It's, it's when you have any kind of childhood trauma on top of this, you know, it can make things so much harder because of how we respond or learn to respond or if you do happen to have a spouse who's like, how could you have let that happen? And now the response is like punishing or which I'm sure happens in some families.
Like, if you have unsupportive partners, um, you know, as therapists, this is the work we do. It's like, we can do a lot of this coaching stuff too. We're talking about plans and logistics and you know, things like that. But then there's the relational piece as well that your doctor can't help you with.
They can't help you navigate the, the, um, You know, they can tell you what to do to use your, your, how to use your epinephrine. They can tell you even how to read food labels. But if you have one partner who's not invested or interested, or they're just super overwhelmed and like they can't, or they can't deal with the grief of it or the frustration of it.
Or like this [00:44:00] wasn't what I wanted life to look like or expected life to look like. and they're not doing their own work in therapy, then yeah, it's really hard. It can be hard in that way.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: It can, and there's such a wide range from, there genuinely sometimes are, you know, couples that I work with that one is not supportive.
One is either not taking the diagnosis seriously, but often more what's the case is not even that, that one is unsupportive and one is not or, but the, the. they have different styles of coping with it. And again, we go back to what's your attachment style. What's, what's your nervous system response like?
And it's, it's often what I find, and this is not to stereotype because obviously gender doesn't dictate much, but in these couples that I'm working with, if it's a male female couple, oftentimes the females, Have the response. They have the fight response to the anxiety of stepping in. I'm going to take control.
I'm going to find out all the information. I'm reading the books, I'm listening to the podcast and now here's [00:45:00] the action plan. And I talked to all these people. And then here's the plan for the school. And a lot of times the, God is are having a different response where they are having more of a flight or a freeze response where it is overwhelming and they feel maybe because of the differences in how the, the, you know, roles in the household are divided or relationships or their own past coping skills, probably a combination of all of those, oftentimes it is the dad's more feeling overwhelmed and not knowing.
How to deal so either just kind of freezing and not being not having the coping skills to look at this and the reality of it and process the fact that my child has this serious thing that we is gonna change every aspect of our lives or You know kind of that flight that I just let's not talk about it.
I don't I don't want to make a big deal out of it Let's just let them have a normal life and treat them like a normal kid and it's not poorly intent It's not, you know, you know bad intentions, but then that can create that dynamic where one spouse feels that they are [00:46:00] shouldering the weight of the child's needs and that the other spouses, you know, yeah, that they're feeling not supported and that's not taken seriously.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. Yeah. And really, like if we do really good, if we are able to do really good couples work, you can find a way to have that fight response. Like you need a little bit of both, right? You Gather information and have this plan and if you're more avoidant, then you're going to, you know, you're going to have the more, um, flight freeze response where it's like, they're going to be fine.
Like you want them to just have a good time. Like, and again, yeah, it's coming from a loving place, but that person can also balance out the person who's more anxious and gathering all the information. But we have to remember we're on the same team. And we're not fighting each other about how to handle this.
We're actually, if we both bring our strengths in, it's a dance we have to do and it's not easy to figure out, but we can figure it out and then our whole family benefits from it. S because of it.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Absolutely. And I [00:47:00] think that when we can help the couples to see that underneath, you're both responding in a, a different way, but underneath, you're both anxious about what's going on here.
You're both scared for your child's safety and wellbeing. And like you said, we, we don't. We never want to have one coping skill. We never want to overuse one coping skill, even if it's a positive productive one. So yes, there is a time for let's get all our ducks in a row. Let's get information. Let's take charge.
And there is a time for, okay, we did the things we're ready now. So now let's kick back and let's have a normal birthday party day. Let's have a, you know, whatever it is and, and, you know, bring both of those responses to the table and balance out the situation, not to always be in one mode.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, I love that example, that way that you just put it and we have to respect each other for that to happen and remember, you know, there has to be this mutual trust and yeah, wow.
I didn't expect any of this conversation to go [00:48:00] here, but this is what I love about like therapy and therapy related conversations is everything is intertwined, you know, um, yeah, it's not just a pamphlet of here's your food allergies. Here's how to read some labels now go off. with your pen and be good.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Yes, it's so complicated, yep. Well, and on that note about talking about relationships, I think the other thing that often people don't realize or don't expect to come into the conversation is how, how are all of the other, like, how are the other kids in their family who don't have these? You know, concerns affected.
How does this affect extended family? Like, I was so close with, with my parents and now they're not taking this seriously and we don't go to their house anymore. It affects, you know, friendships. You, you know, I have, uh, friends and neighbors who were really Um, kind to us in the beginning and showed up with safe things when we moved into our new neighborhood.
And I had others who, when I started asking questions about, Hey, you know, we have food allergies. Thanks for inviting us to the birthday party. Can you let me know what's going to [00:49:00] be there so I can bring safe stuff for my kiddo? We just stopped getting invitations, you know. And then there's the other friends who, as soon as I showed up, said, I just want you to know there's no food in the piñata.
It's all toys. I wanted to make sure. You know, so that kind of thing. That sifts out really quickly who's, what relationships are growing and which ones are, are, we are not going to stick.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. Yeah. We, I talk about that a lot too. Like who, who's capable of what in your life? And then ask, like, cause we talk a lot when you have a chronic illness, we talk a lot about asking for help and being communal and not being scared to basically, yeah, we talk a lot about asking for help, but it's like, okay, well I am asking for help and then this person isn't doing it.
So we, we. We've tried to figure out who's capable of what, and are, that means like, are they willing and able to give you what you need and both of those things have to be present. And if they're not, sometimes it means we have to not be around them at all. And other times it means like they can only be in our lives and this capacity [00:50:00] and we can figure out
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: that.
Yeah.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: That
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Dan's right. Setting some realistic boundaries about what we can, what we can, um, anticipate or what is reasonable to ask them for and think that we might get that response versus setting ourselves up for disappointment if we think, well, she said she'd make a dessert that was safe. And knowing that that's probably not going to happen in a way that works for us.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Exactly.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: One of the things I, I think that's really important is that was thinking about before we talked was just in knowing, um, the broader audience that, that you have for followers, followers in terms of lots of different kinds of chronic stuff going on.
And I think, um, some different conditions there's a lot of, we talk in therapy about little T trauma and big T trauma, right? And I think One of the important things about food allergies is acknowledging, and there are other, you know, medical conditions and diagnoses where this is true, and sometimes it's not, as far as having a combination of both of those things.
So some medical concerns are very much over [00:51:00] time, like you said, the word chronic describes it fully, right? And then some of those also involve, like with food allergies, those big moments of really traumatic incidents, and it just becomes more and more complex when we combine both the ongoing, long term chronic stuff and the, the high, um, intensity moments and really traumatic experiences.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: No, that's really important. It's true. It can be, that's right, complex.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: One of the other things that I like to talk about every time I talk to, um, just making sure for those in your audience who do have food allergies and who have, um, you know, just trouble understanding why, why this anxiety is really just so sticky, like it just hangs around, it just lingers there, um, is the overlap in the anxiety, the physical symptoms of anxiety and the physical symptoms of an allergic reaction.
So I, I think that sets allergic reactions apart or allergy anxiety apart from a lot of other things and that the symptoms [00:52:00] of our medical, medical condition are the symptoms of anxiety. So when we get anxiety, anxious about it, we think we're having a reaction and that's the toughest thing with this specifically, I think, to navigate.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: That I think is a really, yeah, if there's more we can talk about there, we can kind of continue on for a few more minutes around that because I think that is so important and I think right now. At least in my world and like the chronic pain chronic illness, um somatic somatic world there's a lot around Getting rid of your chronic pain or even chronic gi issues chronic like curing it from somatic work or from your even your thoughts or like Relaxing your body.
And again, like it, that never has sat well with me. I don't, um, talk about people in this audience already know, like we're not talking about cures. We're also not talking about suffering forever. We're just talking about being grounded in your body so that you do know what's [00:53:00] happening. But like you said, a food allergy reaction and a symptom of anxiety do feel exactly the same sometimes.
So what do we do? What do we do when that's happening?
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: It can be really confusing. And I think it's another one of those things that we trace back, right? So, so that's one of the. Clearer things to work with, with this population of people is that they may not be having actual physical symptoms all the time, chronically, like, like some other clients with different, um, conditions are managing.
So, when those symptoms arise, if, you know, they're not chronic, if the anxiety symptoms aren't chronic all the time, then, um, we want to pay attention to them. We have to take them seriously. And we learn strategies to determine, like, determine the difference between them. So, obviously, um, if you're breathing, it's better to If it's feeling difficult to breathe, then we practice.
Doing a breathing exercise and paying attention to the amount of time that's passing, if appropriate, obviously, if it's not such an [00:54:00] extreme breathing reaction that we need immediate response. But then we, we notice and we observe the body's reaction. And if we have um, you know, if we're breaking out in hives, then we put a cold compress on it, if it's not rapidly progressing, we kind of learn, even though the physical symptoms feel the same, let's gauge whether this is increasing, is it picking up speed, or is it staying constant, and if it's constant, then does a strategy hold it steady or reduce it, because obviously allergic reactions are, they build, they increase in intensity, so.
And that's not, I just want to be careful to say that's not to encourage anyone to like, if you think you're having a serious allergic reaction, you always, always, always, uh, be. And, you know, this is, that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about if you're in your mind going, is this an allergic reaction?
You know, if you're not sure, then we take a minute to assess the situation, but we never delay if we can't breathe or if we're, yes. For
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: sure. Yeah, yeah, I do think that's an important distinction. Um, but yeah, it's [00:55:00] true, like, Yeah, we have to sit back and observe. And that's a lot of what I teach my clients as well with other chronic symptoms and issues.
Um, you know, you tweak your back and then you become, you have low back pain for years and years and years. You finally start getting better. The second you feel anything in your back, your, your brain brings you back to the injury, the pain. And then we work through that, um, somatically. But there's, for me, there's never a, uh, You know this isn't your back injured again because we don't always know.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: We don't know, right. And it would be dangerous to potentially ignore it. If there's a new injury or if there's something that needs attention, we don't, we don't want to ignore and we don't want to over focus on it to the extent that it exaggerates the symptom, right? Yeah, exactly.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, it's really difficult but I think also going, just going back to the co regulation piece for a second, um, That's why it's so important to have the planning in place before so that you do feel like wait, okay I do I [00:56:00] know how to Figure this out.
I might not know what's happening, but I know where to look for support I can even hold my pen in my hand if I'm really unsure But like I am leaning towards anxiety, you know, I'm feeling like this is anxiety but I you know And so I can hold my pen in my hand, like, be safe, be, use your plan, um, and who can be around you to support you, and that's where the parent child, especially if you're working with a child or an adolescent, like, that's critical for that relationship to step in.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: Yeah, and that, to allow that co regulation for parents to, to provide that safe co regulation, um, all the things that you're mentioning are important. are what it takes for a parent to stay calm in that situation. So if the parent is the one pulling out the action plan and saying, okay, remember we read here, we talked to the doctor, let's go down the list and take it out of, of their hands for them to have to, you know, access their prefrontal cortex when all of the blood flow to [00:57:00] that area of the brain is restricted because they're in such a panic state too, we take away everything.
We try to remove the barriers of what, what that parent would need to respond in, a more regulated state by taking it out of their body and externalizing it to the tools and the reminders and the plans that are constant no matter how we're feeling internally.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, exactly. That makes perfect sense.
Amazing. I think this was very thorough. Um, And I know people will get a lot out of it. So thank you so much for sharing. And I hope people gain a lot out of your podcast. Um, remind me if the first one is aired yet.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: The first episode is out. Yep. Um, the second one should be coming out in about a week. So depending on how quickly you have a turnaround, it should be coming soon or just out.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Okay. I was going to say, I, it actually will probably be a couple of months cause I'm a little bit behind. Yeah.
Amanda Whitehouse, PhD: I'll probably have a few out by then.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Amazing. Cool. Well, thank you so [00:58:00] much. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
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