Ep 26: Navigating the Complex Path of Chronic Illness: Dr. Ginny's Journey

Written By Destiny Winters

  • This is a rough transcript created with Artificial Intelligence technology. Any misspellings and sentence errors are a result of imperfect Al.

    Hi, Dr. Ginny. Thank you for being there. You're welcome. So, like I mentioned in the bio, Dr. Ginny is a clinical psychologist in Atlanta. Is your office in Atlanta or is it in Gwinnett? It's in Duluth. Duluth? Okay. Mm-hmm. . And you started working with clients? Actually, Why don't I ask you to kind of tell us where you wanna start as far as, how you got started with working with chronic illness.

    And you can even talk generally about your own counseling ex, like trauma and perinatal mood and, and kind of how did that evolve into chronic illness? Sure. So I started working with clients in general in 2006. But I was trained as a generalist in university counseling centers and kind of continued that till about 2016.

    And then I started to get more interested in specializing. and was diagnosed myself with chronic migraines in 2016 and started getting interested in specializing in chronic illness as a result of that, I when I was diagnosed, I was in therapy at the time and had a great therapist, but it felt like There were things that she just didn't totally understand in a sense of like just what that experience was like.

    It's a, you know, I think it takes an an element of medical knowledge and then also just like having gone through that of like, you know, experiencing medical gaslighting and You know, just a lot of medical crap that you go through and and. So I could imagine how it would feel really good to have a therapist who had been through something like that no matter what your diagnosis was.

    And obviously like having chronic migraines doesn't qualify me to know what everyone's experience is like, you know, no matter what their diagnosis is. But I feel like it gives me some insight into just the medical system and what that experience is like in terms of searching for a diagnosis and going through multiple, multiple treatments that don't work and having to like, keep going through that and keep trying to find something that works.

    So I started specializing. Well, I didn't start specializing right away because I actually had to take a medical leave because I couldn't find a treatment that worked. So I actually like wasn't working for a while. But when I finally got on Botox and was like starting to get things under control, I when I came back to work, I started to focus on, on treating chronic illness and then I really.

    I'd always been interested in trauma and then I started to realize that like a huge percentage of people with chronic illness also had trauma histories and that it really went hand in hand. And so I, you know, furthered my training in trauma and got trained in E N D R and so kind of. Kept those, you know, going.

    And then I had my son I had had my son in 2011 and through that experience and knowing a lot of other moms and, you know around that time and everything, and knowing a lot of people that struggled with postpartum depression and anxiety and everything, I I knew I also had an interest in that.

    And so I really It, it kind of all ties together in the sense of like wanting to help people going through kind of major life events. It's like that transition of like, I used to. Feel like I had my life together, , and then something happened and like everything has been turned upside down and and now I'm here.

    So yeah. There's nothing like a chronic illness or having a kid or both right, right. To say every the way you moved through the world no longer works. Mm-hmm. exactly. And so so those are really my three areas that I focus on the most. And then, you know, anxiety and depression and stuff. You know, all relationship problems, like all, you know, come along with all of that.

    But those are really my, my three areas. And then I ended up, you know, I had the chronic migraines and then nobody had looked at my neck for, I don't know why. It's the medical system. So, you know no one has common sense, but nobody had looked at my neck for. A few years after I was diagnosed, and then they finally looked at my neck and they were like, oh, you have a bulging disc and you have these two things that are fused together that shouldn't be fused together, and that's probably contributing to your migraines,

    So I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, probably. And so now I, you know, get treatments for my neck. And then, and then I got diagnosed with narcolepsy a year later. So, That is right. It was kind of like one thing after another, after another. . And so each time it was kind of that cycle of like, you know another thing and having to adjust to it and having to adjust to different medication and, you know, the whole thing.

    Yeah. Can we talk, we haven't talked about narcolepsy on the podcast yet. Mm-hmm. Hmm. curious if you can tell us a little bit about that and has anything improved with that? Does it stay the same? Tell yeah. What is that experience like for you? Yeah, so I'm, I'm lucky in the sense that I don't have the cataplexy, I don't have the, like, falling down like with a muscle weakness which is always portrayed in the movies where people just like fall out, you know, and collapse.

    So really it's excessive daytime sleepiness and I've, you know, Went through a sleep study and then you, you have to go through a nighttime sleep study and then you go through a nap study during the day and they time how long it takes you to fall asleep, like just in the middle of the day if you've had no caffeine.

    And it was like 15 seconds , like it was Wow. It it's like way too fast, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. . What is the, for someone who has extreme trouble sleeping and hears that and says, wow, that must be nice. Can you dispel that myth, please? Well, I'll tell you, people with narcolepsy have insomnia too. So I have horrible insomnia at night, which is like this horrible twist of

    You know, it's like, it's like this is this cruel joke of like, you know, at nighttime I'm like wide awake, like. You know, can't fall asleep at night, but during the day, you know, I'm like ready to go to sleep. So it's very weird how that works. And but I had, I had fallen asleep driving a couple times and and so.

    You know, it was like clearly like needed to get treatment cuz obviously that's not safe. And and so they treat it, the medications are unpleasant, They're like, they give them to people in the military to make 'em stay awake for like 48 hours straight . It's like, oh my God. It's like these really intense medications and, and then it's just stimulants.

    Yeah. So it's like Adderall or, you know, stuff like that. But, but it The withdrawal from stuff like that, you know, and I, I don't know if I'm just really sensitive to it, but it, coming off of Adderall and things makes me like super irritable and anxious and I finally found one really long acting one that I could tolerate.

    So I, you know, I got to a place where I have a good combination of stuff and it's, you know, it's in a good place now, but finding it was unpleasant. , my boyfriend can attest in the fact that I was not the most pleasant person to deal with. . Oh, I, I guess that leads me to my next question, like, how did you get through those moments?

    What was your support system like, or your coping mechanisms? . Yeah, I mean, my boyfriend was a huge part of my support system because he was, it's hard, you know, it's hard to like evaluate that when you're in it and try to, you know, evaluate if it's working or if, you know, am I just in a bad mood or like, is this the medication or what, you know?

    But he could definitely tell like this, you know, seems like the medication and, and when I talk to the doctor, they're like, yeah, this is like going through meth withdrawal, like is what you're experiencing. So, so you would be cra you would be cranky, you know? So, so so, you know, he was a big part of it and.

    In terms of helping me evaluate what was working and what wasn't and, and what was tolerable And when it was time to be like, you know, this isn't gonna work. Yeah. So I'm hearing lots of compassion, which we talk a lot about, excuse me, on this, on this podcast. And it sounds like you had the. the experience of having a partner who was able to stay in that compassionate zone.

    Mm-hmm. . Yeah, definitely for the most part. And and I've been in therapy throughout you know, I found another therapist who had some experience with chronic illness. And that was really helpful. You know, to have somebody who had some knowledge around that and you know, could understand the, the medical component of what, you know, the things that were going on and and just, you know, could be supportive in that way which was a huge help.

    Yeah. Definitely Then, yeah, the medical knowledge I think is what. Probably starts to separate. It's the starting point for what separates those of us who specialize in chronic illness. Cuz it really is, it's like learning a different language and if you don't know it, you might inherently make comments that.

    Or like, you know, well your doctor said this, like, and then you try to have you, how, how can I help you just do what your doctor said? And it's like, right, that's not quite, that's not quite helpful. When I have a chronic illness therapy. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, definitely. And I think it goes a long way. Like I have a couple of chronic migraine.

    Clients who, you know, I know it goes a long way when they don't feel like they have to explain everything to me of like, I started this new medication and like this is what it is and this is what it's for and this is what you know. And it's like, you know, I know it goes a long way that I just know what they're talking about and they don't have.

    You know, spend 10 minutes talking to me about, you know Yeah. Like teaching you about it. Right, right. And, you know, it's, I mean, I think that's really helpful for them. Yeah, definitely. And I know on your when, when I was reading through your interview form, we talked a little, you talked a little bit about dating and so I'm hearing that your boyfriend was with you through some.

    Hmm, excuse me, what you're currently, or with your migraines but mm-hmm. , can you talk to us a little bit about that dating phase and were you sick when you were, before you were in a relationship and Yeah. What was some of that like? Mm-hmm. . So I was married when I started, so if you wanna talk about stress leading to the onset of chronic illness, , I.

    My migraine started in May of 2016 and I moved out of my house in October to get divorced. So, you know, yeah, you can make of that what you will . And and my ex-husband was not the most supportive around the migraines like. And he wasn't like actively not supportive, but he just was kind of like, I don't know, just kind of annoyed by them

    Mm. Or just kinda as if they're some kind of choice. Yeah. Like it was kind of annoying to him that they existed. And And I will say we have a much better relationship now and we have a son and and he's always willing to like, take my son if I'm sick and I need him to, and you know, like we do much better living separately

    So but yeah, it was, it was hard dating, I think. And knowing like. You know, like knowing kind of when to tell people or when to like, you know, if you're on a date and you can feel one coming on and it's like, you know, not wanting to be like, I need to go home , like, I feel sick. You know, and I think that can be really hard.

    And I know for my clients it can be really hard of like, when. Disclose and how much to disclose and and you know, not wanting to hide it. From people, but at the same time, not wanting to like, just come right out of, of the gate at the, at the same time. You know, and I think it's, I think it's a delicate balance.

    You know, and I, I always think of the, I think it's a Brene Brown thing where she talks about like the marble jar and it's like, You put one marble in with like something you're vulnerable about and they put one marble in and like, you kind of keep going back and forth and it's like, you know, you kind of like work your way up to that's true.

    I haven't had heard that one before. Like this, like gradual like give and take process. That's right. Can you, can you expand on that piece a little bit for clients who mm-hmm. , because this comes up a lot in therapy. Mm-hmm. dating, chronic illness, when to disclose, and I like that example of the marbles, cuz Yeah.

    Really if you, if you think about it, it really is. It's like anything else that you're talking about, but mm-hmm. , because it's such a big part of our lives. It feels it can be bigger. But it, it also, I feel like is just another vulnerable marble that you're putting into this relationship jar. Yeah. Yeah.

    And I think it depends on what the illness is too. Like, I think, cuz I think it's hard to make like a blanket statement about it because some people's, you know, you really can't hide from the beginning. And so it's like, it's right out there. From the get go and you know, you're not gonna be able to hide it.

    Yeah. So you might as well just kind of lead with it and like acknowledge the elephant in the room, like it's right there. But I think for something like migraines, it's, you know, something you can. Wait a little bit and, and share, you know, as they're sharing more personal stuff and, and not I think people have a tendency to like, See it as this really big deal when it's them and like it's gonna be this deal breaker.

    And, and oftentimes to the other person, it's like, they're kind of like, okay, . You know, they often get this reaction from the other person that's just kind of like, okay. You know, like that. They don't have this huge reaction. And so, you know, waiting a little bit and not just busting out with it right away I think totally makes sense.

    Can we talk about maybe some of the fears that come up on, you know, on. The end of the person with the chronic illness. You know, like, like to what you just said, we, we have it in our heads that it's gonna be this big deal breaker. And your experience with yourself, with clients, is this based on shame?

    Is this based on, you know improper or even proper perceptions of what it's like to live and what that means of the other person? Can we go into some. Yeah, I mean I think it's based on shame. I think it's based on the fear of being a burden. I think. You know, they don't wanna you know, put the other person out and like trouble them.

    And you know, but a lot of it is stuff. They could either ask the person or that they need to trust that the other person will tell them if that's happening. And until the other person says something like it's on the other person to say something like, right. If they really are being a burden that's on the other person to say like, I don't wanna do this.

    It's too much like you're asking too much. . there's some assumptions I think that we make, like one, it's gonna be too much for them, and two, if we if we don't get that out of them to say that they're just gonna hide it. Like they're gonna feel burdened and they're not gonna even say anything and mm-hmm.

    what are some other assumptions that come up for us? Yeah, I mean, I think people think it's gonna, How the person feels about them you know, that they're not going to care about them in the same way that they're, you know it's going to change their feelings. And just all kinds of things in terms of their, the other person's perception of 'em.

    And And a lot of times I think if you ask the other person, it's like, it's, it's not, you know, nothing, it doesn't, doesn't really change anything. What happens if, if, let's say their assumption is right and it does change something. What, what is the, the way that you work with that internally? What are some, yeah, I mean, I think it depends on what it changes, but.

    Usually it's, it's not like a, it's not a disaster. It's it, you know, it might change something in the sense of like, okay, they're not, you know, immortal. They're not, you know, like they're, they could potentially get sick. Like there's, you know, but it's something that would've changed eventually. Anyway. It's, you know, it's, Anything that's catastrophic.

    It's just kind of a, you know, a realization of like, this person isn't perfect. And, and oftentimes when I've worked with people, it's like, you're gonna realize. You're both not perfect , like that realization's gonna happen like at some point, you know, I don't know when, but like it's, you know, it's on its way, like it's gonna happen.

    So it's, you know, it's just happening now, but but yeah, y you know, usually it seems to be something like that, that like it's, you know, a, a perfectly normal realization. That's, that's true. And yeah, and not catastrophic. It's just, you know, a normal realization. I, I'm hearing that the, the advice I guess is, you know, we are so focused on if somebody's gonna like us or accept us, really, when you start to accept yourself more and know that it's okay to have, it's okay.

    I don't even know the right way to say it cuz I wanna say it's okay to have imperfections, but that gives the insinuation that, you know, we're imperfect because of whatever we're bringing to the table. But as you're saying, we're all imperfect and this is my stuff. You have your stuff, we're gonna figure out.

    We both have stuff. Right. So we just work on accepting ourselves and. Showing up to the table with that acceptance, knowing that if you don't accept, if the person across the table doesn't accept me there would've been something else anyway in the relationship where it would've been a deal breaker like that isn't gonna work out.

    Mm-hmm. . Exactly. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, just because one person has a chronic illness and. Might be something they have to deal with. You know, the other person's gonna have something like, just cuz they don't have a chronic illness doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with them. . You know, it's like the, there's gonna be something exactly going on with them.

    They've got some kind of baggage, so, yeah. Yes. It's might not be as obvious or something, but. That's still there. So, yeah. I'm curious if you wanna talk a little bit more about the beginning stages of your health journey, and that could be related still to dating or not but kind of like what do you feel like you did right?

    What do you feel like you would've done differently? Yeah. I feel like I. Did the best I could to find medical professionals to help me , but I wish I had like somehow it's like, I don't think I could have, but like I wish that I had, you know, found different people cuz I had some really bad experiences. And I I had a, I had a guy at the Shepherd Center that I saw, and I was like, it's the Shepherd Center.

    Like it's, you know, the Shepherd Center. It's amazing, whatever, who told me I didn't have migraines and he wasn't gonna give me opiates. And that was our whole conversation and I was. What and I and I, I wanna even clarify. Did you even ask for them or was that just like out thinking? No, that was just what he said, you know?

    Yeah. I was like, what are you talking about ? Oh my goodness. And then that's, and the reason why I even knew you that you probably didn't ask to begin with is cuz I've had two clients tell me, not from the Shepherd Center, but from different doctors where that was right out the gate, what they said, and it.

    Dude, I'm not even looking for pain meds. Like, yeah, can you just help me? and migraines are like classic because I've been to the ER so many times for migraines and like they, it's like such a pill seeker because you can't test for it. You can't, you know, like prove it. And so it's such a drug seeker thing, you know?

    So you just get treated like shit. And, but the guy, oh, he was so weird and he he then gave me trigger point injections in my neck. And when I had side effects, my whole arm went numb. And I called his office and the nurse said, he doesn't wanna see you. And just like fired me over the phone. . It was so weird.

    That's traumatic. So like, so traumatic. You know, I had some experiences like that where I was just like, and I was doing what he, he wanted me to see the pain psychologist and do physical therapy and I had signed up for that and I was like going and so I was like, I don't know what else you wanted me to.

    Oh my gosh. It sounds like an ego thing, right? He couldn't figure it out, so he put the on you. So just, you know, like, I don't know that I could have done anything better. Like, I was trying to like go to the best place I knew of and like, you know I will say like, as far as that, cuz I, I wanna make for people listening, like, by the way, there is a, well she, she works in the MS department.

    There are some really great therapists at the Shepherd Center that I know. Yeah. But even like, I've heard stories about this from Emory, from Mayo Clinic and the reason why I'm, I guess, eliminating the names is because, like you said, you think it's like this big prestigious place, but the people working there are, are all, are all just normal people who have their own shit, their own egos, their own triggers, their own lack of education or education.

    And you can get really lucky going to your local er, finding some doctor who hasn't been burnt out yet and really gives you some solid advice and gets you help. And then you, you can go to a place like Shepherd or Mayo and that's what happened. Like I went and saw a neurologist who was good. and her partner.

    And then I had to switch, I think, cuz of insurance or something. I had to switch. And then I got hooked up with my current neurologist, who I adore. Who d Like when I first met him, he just sat down and was like, tell me your story. Like tell me the whole thing. And like, he has worked with me for like years and that's amazing.

    Like. Gets me set up on Botox. He knows that Botox doesn't last me 12 weeks, it'll last me nine and a half weeks for whatever reason, Mm, whatever mysterious reason that is, insurance thinks it. She'll last 12, but it's like, doesn't for some reason. And he help you get that approved with, he like helps me like get that all like, you know, like taken care of and You know, like he's amazing.

    And and so it just, you know, it's like, I think the thing I did right is just like, keep going , you know, like I just like kept. Looking and kept going and didn't just completely give up after like some bad experiences because yeah, the beginning was, was just bizarre and awful. You know, and then I think of these people who don't have the resources and don't, you know, have the ability to, Looking and, you know, yeah, it'd be awful.

    Yeah. Can you tell me maybe a little bit about what your typical clients look like in private practice? Mm-hmm. , you know, age and experiences. What do you do? You tend to gravitate towards one type of. Not just one type, but gravitate towards, you know, a general client. So I've got kind of a range.

    I, I see adults, so like my youngest client's 22, but then well I guess I've got a 25 year old too. So. Young adult to adult. And then they're all pretty high achieving. Like even my, you know, my chronic illness. People are all pretty high achieving. They push themselves pretty hard. A lot of what we work on is like, Are you sure you should be working?

    It's eight o'clock at night. , like, slow down. Yes. And so it really is like a big focus of our work is like boundary setting and you know, them not wanting to. Use their chronic illness to like, you know, get out of doing stuff, you know, and it's like, it's not really getting out of stuff. It's just, you know, acknowledging that like you need a break.

    I know I, my, I've got some clients like that and the way that I explained it is like this symptom, it's not necessarily. , this conversation gets really tricky. It's not that stress just inherently causes a chronic thing, pain, illness, disease, whatever. It's, but it does exacerbate and, mm-hmm. stress kind of, if there's already a, think about like the weakest link and something, you know, think about an anchor and there is one link that's weak, right?

    And, and something crashes into that anchor, a large whale or whatever. That anchor might be incredibly strong and not break anywhere else except for that one link, which now everything is derailed from the anchor, no longer can do its job. Mm-hmm. stress is like the whale. And it's not that we wanna fear stress, but we wanna figure out why are we overworking?

    What is the, the guilt or the shame, or the. The things that are coming up around that. So yeah. Can you speak to that a little bit Completely? Yeah. I mean, I think. The stress of, of wanting to do things perfectly and, and almost like overcompensating for the illness. I think a lot of times, like I have clients who have to miss work to go, you know, to doctor's appointments to go get infusions, to go get, you know, Procedures done.

    And so then they feel like they have to come back and like work, you know, double time to like make up for that. And it's like, you know, you have sick days, , like that's what those are for. That's, you know, the point of them is to take them. So. You know, I think a lot of, a lot of work around that and just perfectionism in general.

    Like I, I work with a lot of people around like, you know, adequate is like just fine, you know, like being adequate is mm-hmm. . Like perfectly okay. Like there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, you get your job done. You don't need to go like above and beyond and, and way, you know, way above what was asked for.

    And so it's, it's a lot of that. And But yeah, they, you know, and then, you know, chronic illness wise, I, I see a lot of migraines and Crohn's and gastroparesis and what else? Diabetes and different Kind of like arthritis and kind of pain, like, you know, fibromyalgia that kind of stuff.

    Yeah, and, and especially in those stress really does it, it can really even bring on a symptom. Again, it's not that like yeah, completely the symptom wasn't lingering somewhere, but that, that high levels of stress really does just kind of illuminate it like firework. Yeah. Completely, completely. And it just, yeah.

    You know, we talk a lot about burnout and how, you know, how much that can just accentuate, you know, all those symptoms. What are some of the fears that come up for people if they are gonna. Try to stop working so much, or overworking, what are some of the fears they have that keep them from doing that, that you then kind of help them work through?

    I get a lot of people who are afraid that like if they let themselves rest, that they'll just like, never stop , you know? And I'm, I'm constantly telling people like, You're not the type of person , like I, I have no concern that like you're gonna all of a sudden just like not do anything. You know, because they're like so far in the one direction of like constantly working that like if you give yourself a little slack, you're not gonna all of a sudden go way in the other direction and.

    Become a couch potato that does nothing and you know, never goes back to work. But that's a fear like that a lot of people have where it's like, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give myself this little bit of slack and then I'm just gonna like, stop . It's gonna keep well, it's funny. Completely stop working.

    You know, as you said that, I'm like, it's funny, the fear of. If I rest, I'll never stop resting. But they're not scared of the fact that if I, if I work, I'm gonna keep working , and, and when I say they, I'm really, I'm, I've fallen this category. So please, y'all take this with , with a lighthearted air about it.

    I'm not, I'm not chastising anyone. I definitely have. Have to learn and relearn this all the time. Mm. I'll think, you know, oh, I've learned, I've learned the art of balance and rest, and then there's just a little bit too much white space on my calendar and I'm like, oh, oh, what can I fill it up with

    Well, and and that's what I tell people all the time too. It's like it took me years to schedule. Like to do my schedule, like as if I have migraines. Like I would, you know, it'd be, you know, I got 'em in 2016 and it would be 2020 and I'd be like, no, like I can do this. like fill up my calendar. And even though like my head gets worse, the later in the day I go, I'd be like scheduling people at four and five.

    And my boyfriend, it would drive my boyfriend crazy cuz he'd be like, what are you doing ? You know? And he is like, why are you scheduling yourself like you don't have migraines? And I'm like, well cuz I don't wanna have migraines , you know? Like I know as you think, I just wish I didn't have 'em. And it's like, you just keep doing it.

    But I'm like, it takes a long time to like sink in and be like, oh, okay. Like I actually have. Like schedule is of, you know, my life is my life. Like, no, that's such a good point. Like, I don't want to have them. So I live in a, a state of denial. Like maybe today I can yes. When I was pregnant I had migraines almost every day.

    And there's nothing you can take. That's awful safely when you're pregnant. I, that's awful. There are some awful, I tried a couple different things. Take like Tylenol or something, but Yeah. Which does nothing. Nothing. Don't even try. Yeah. Does nothing. That's terrible. That's the only time mine went away. Oh yeah.

    That was like a nice respite for me of like not having, I hear that a lot like pregnancy, bringing those symptoms away. I did have other symptoms that went away during pregnancy. But yeah, I was still working like 50 hours a week and I was private practice and agency and oh my gosh, I don't know. Oh gosh.

    I then, I, I mean I took four months off though. But I think that's a part of the problem, right? We. We work really hard and then we crash really hard, mm-hmm. , which is why I love, now I'm just in private practice. Yeah. Then I filled my time up with the podcast . But, but it's, it's much more on my own terms.

    Like I, I didn't post the Friday before. New Year's. I try to pu, I try to publish every two weeks and sometimes it goes every four weeks. Like it's happened two or three times. And yeah, I just have to like, yeah, be kind to myself and know, let it go. Yeah. Yeah. I mean doing agency and private practice has to be, that had to be really hard and, and being pregnant and.

    And I moved, I moved home and I got a puppy . Oh my God. a little bit crazy. Yeah. But I'll say I, I'm like, oh, I knew when I was, I was at UGA when I got pregnant. I was doing my postdoc when I got pregnant and they offered me a job, like there was a job opening for a psychologist, you know, the next year. And, but I was like, it's eight to.

    And I have to drive an hour to get here, . And I was like, oh, thank you. No, thank you . . Just so glad you do private practice . Yes. Like I'm just gonna go straight into private practice cause Yep. It was, oh my gosh. Yeah. Cuz that's crazy. That's, so, that makes me think of some of the fears, the question earlier that I asked, like what are the fears?

    And I think another one is like, well if I don't take this opportunity, I'm never gonna get another one. and this opportunity says I have to work nine to six, and if I don't take it, what's gonna happen? So yeah, it, it takes, you know, all the stuff that I talk about on this podcast, it takes a mix of hard work, luck, privilege, you know as well as sometimes therapy or really good mentors or, mm.

    It's a lot of trial and error and learning and failing and then learning more, and, So really, I mean the main skill we're trying to develop is being comfortable with challenge and continuing on in the face of challenges, cuz this whole thing is just a one big challenge. completely. Yeah. It is and, and sometimes it's easier than others.

    Like I think it's harder for me to challenge myself now because I've gotten comfortable, like it was easy for me to leave U G A because I was so used to being broke. and a graduate student, you know, and my husband at the time was a graduate student, so we had no money. So I was like, well, I'll just start a private practice that is, I already, that don't have any money.

    I'm like, you just do this . But like the idea of doing something like that now is like, oh my gosh, that's. Terrifying. Like, I can't do that. You know? It's like I've gotten an 11 year old and I'm like, I, I have a house and you know, like I can't just, you know, do something like that now. But absolutely at the time it was like, whatever we're, we have no money, we'll just, you know, make this work.

    And so yeah, I think context is important too. Absolut. I like that example. It's like, no, yeah. Fear, right? Like just moving past the fear, realizing what you're able to do in your circumstances. And it sounds ironic. Mm-hmm. , but you were able to leave because you had no money. . Yeah. Not because you had, if you had more, you'd be like, no, I can't lose this.

    Right. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't really giving anything up. I was just, you know, staying the same and just kinda. I was used to it. didn't make much of a difference. , it was like, yeah. So I have two more questions before we go. Yeah, sure. I wanna know if you can give listeners a piece of work life balance advice, what would it be?

    And then this might also be in the same question. Do you have your kind of go-to confidence boosters when you're feeling down or not enough? Mm-hmm. so. I think work-life balance is kind of bullshit. , I love it. Cuz I just think it's like, I think when people talk about it, it's like this, I don't know this, there's this like, ideal.

    Picture in people's mind of like, everything's in balance and like I'm working the perfect amount and I'm at home the perfect amount, and everything's like wonderful. And, and I just I think it sets up this false idea that like everything can be imbalance all at once, and that you can like, stay in that place.

    I think you can have it for like a week, , and then you'll lose it, and then you'll get it back again, and then you'll lose it again. And, you know but I think it, I think it is a matter of trying to just like, Figure out, you know, what a good amount of work is for you personally and. Trying to stick to that and realizing that like some weeks you're gonna go over and you'll realize it cuz you'll feel it and adjust and you know, some weeks you'll be under and that's fine and you know, you can make adjustments as you go along.

    But yeah, I think it's, people talk about it like it's this destination and it's like, I don't , I've never gotten there . So I think it's you. It reminds me of the speech. It went pretty viral this past year. And I'm trying to remember her name. I'll find, if you don't know who it is, I will find it and I'll put it in the show notes.

    But she talked about, she's a famous she's famous and she talked about work-life balance and how like, yeah, when I'm, you know, Doing this over here. My house is a mess. And when my house is a mess, you know? Right. I mean, when my house is clean, I'm not doing so well at work and when I'm a great mom.

    Mm-hmm. So it's, yeah. What are you willing to sacrifice at the time so that the thing that's most important to you at this phase in your life can get done? Mm-hmm. . Exactly. Because something you know, it's like you either need help with. Parts of it, or like something's gotta give. I mean, it, it just, I think it's hard to have everything in balance and find that like magical place

    Yeah. I think it's a myth. Unless you live with, I mean it's, part of it is just our culture, right? We're very hyper independent. But when you. And there's, there's problems that come with like more communal ways of living too, but when you live more communally or with your extended family and whatnot, right?

    Mm-hmm. , you know, grandma's cleaning the house every day and, and dad is cooking every day and like you're out working and bringing money home for the groceries and. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, if I had a personal chef and housekeepers coming every day and, you know, , all your work-life balance would be great and be all set.

    But as it is, no one's volunteered to do that yet. So love it. Haven't found it yet, but, but I have gotten better at it. And I think that is the thing. Like I think you can get better at it and I think you can get close where it's not like completely out of whack. And I think for a long time I was like completely out of whack.

    Mm-hmm. Which was making me sicker. So I do think there is like progress to be made to where you can. You know, decently close. It's just not gonna be perfect. But I think you can find a place where you're like, you know, getting, getting there, you're getting close to where you're not like making yourself sick with stress right.

    And that kind of thing. So when you get better, your skills improve in different areas, and then it doesn't take as much energy to maybe cook or clean or mm-hmm. do this thing at work because you've learned how to be more efficient or decided what's important and what's not. Mm-hmm. . So then, yeah, you're able to feed yourself every day at a certain point, and then you can focus your energy on learning to do something else.

    Right. So with time and age, it does get easier. I can attest to that. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And so lastly, yeah. Do you have any go-to confidence boosters that you, you kind of use when, when either you or your clients are feeling down or, or not enough? Yeah, so I was thinking about that cuz I'm really bad at like cheering myself up when I feel that way.

    And so I was thinking about like what I. When I feel that way or like how I try to manage that. And I think there's a few things that I do. I generally talk to the people that care a lot about me and try to get their feedback or their input because cuz if I'm feeling that way, and I try to say stuff to myself.

    I generally am like you're full of shit, . Like, I don't, I don't believe it. You know? Mm-hmm. , so I'm just like, mm-hmm. , whatever. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. So I try to you know, talk to my boyfriend, talked to my good friends talked to my mom, talked to my son and. You know, ask them to tell me something nice about myself or, you know, something positive about myself or something they're proud of me for, or anything like that that like will help kind of lift my mood.

    And that seems to help clients too, cuz I think, I feel like One of the downfalls of C B T is. You know that whole argument, not argument, but that whole conversation you can have with clients where it's like, they'll be like, I'm a piece of crap. And you're like, what evidence do you have that you're a piece of crap?

    And they're like, I don't know, but I just feel like I'm a piece of crap. And like that's just goes around in circles where it's like, you know, they can list evidence that they're not a piece of crap, but then they're like, well, I still feel that way, . Exactly, exactly. It's like, so it's like, well, okay. That's why I was so drawn to acceptance and commitment therapy and mm-hmm.

    somatic experiencing things like that. Cause mm-hmm. . Yeah. You feel how you feel, right? Like it just, yeah, it's. Is, you know, they are where they are and so, you know, having them, you know, like why don't you ask for some feedback from other people, like what they think of you. Yeah. You know, and, and internalize the, because it's in, we heal in relationship, right?

    And so that seems to go a lot farther. And help a lot more. And and just gets them talking to another person about how they feel and you know, like starting to have that conversation. And so, you know, that's, that's kind of my go-to yeah, for that and for, yeah, when I'm not feeling great. Yeah.

    Yeah. That's great. Thank you for that. I think those are really great things to think about and try to incorporate more into our lives. Everyone who listens to this podcast knows, I think relationships are the most important thing in our life. Mm-hmm. To any way that we can just connect in a way that helps us and it helps the other person.

    You know, it's reciprocal, so. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Anything else you wanna leave listeners with? I don't think so. I think I would just really encourage people to to go to therapy. Yeah. If they have a chronic illness. , I think it's, yeah, it's really hard to deal with and . And I think it's one of those things that can be extremely isolating and and it just, you know, therapy or group therapy for it you know, I think can be extremely helpful.

    And I don't know that people always associate it with going to therapy. I wish more physicians like, kind of recommended that as like kind of an automatic thing, you know? I feel like a lot of them even have stopped or scared to give mental health referrals because people. You know, have really spoken out about, like, you think it's in my head, I don't need therapy.

    Right. Yeah. Just educating doctors I think on like how to make that referral. Yeah. But it's not like they're saying that, it's just Yeah. That people need the support and Right. Because yeah, I mean I feel like it's, it's just really helpful. Cuz it's a hard road. I think it can be really helpful. Yeah.

    Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Oh yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. It was a pleasure. One more thing for the listeners. You, you had mentioned group therapy, so I do have a group currently running for people who are in Georgia. So if you are listening and you're, you live in Georgia, you're looking for a group environment, feel free to email me, destiny Destiny winter.com.

    Great.

    All right. Hi, Dr. Ginny. Thank you for being there. You're welcome. So, like I mentioned in the bio, Dr. Ginny is a clinical psychologist in Atlanta. Is your office in Atlanta or is it in Gwinnett? It's in Duluth. Duluth? Okay. Mm-hmm. . And you started working with clients? Actually, Why don't I ask you to kind of tell us where you wanna start as far as how you got started with working with chronic illness.

    And you can even talk generally about your own counseling ex, like trauma and perinatal mood and, and kind of how did that evolve into chronic illness? Sure. So I started working with clients in general in 2006. But I was trained as a generalist in university counseling centers and kind of continued that till about 2016.

    And then I started to get more interested in specializing. and was diagnosed myself with chronic migraines in 2016 and started getting interested in specializing in chronic illness as a result of that, I when I was diagnosed, I was in therapy at the time and had a great therapist, but it felt like There were things that she just didn't totally understand in a sense of like just what that experience was like.

    It's a, you know, I think it takes an an element of medical knowledge and then also just like having gone through that of like, you know, experiencing medical gaslighting and You know, just a lot of medical crap that you go through and and. So I could imagine how it would feel really good to have a therapist who had been through something like that no matter what your diagnosis was.

    And obviously like having chronic migraines doesn't qualify me to know what everyone's experience is like, you know, no matter what their diagnosis is. But I feel like it gives me some insight into just the medical system and what that experience is like in terms of searching for a diagnosis and going through multiple, multiple treatments that don't work and having to like, keep going through that and keep trying to find something that works.

    So I started specializing. Well, I didn't start specializing right away because I actually had to take a medical leave because I couldn't find a treatment that worked. So I actually like wasn't working for a while. But when I finally got on Botox and was like starting to get things under control, I when I came back to work, I started to focus on, on treating chronic illness and then I really.

    I'd always been interested in trauma and then I started to realize that like a huge percentage of people with chronic illness also had trauma histories and that it really went hand in hand. And so I, you know, furthered my training in trauma and got trained in E N D R and so kind of. Kept those, you know, going.

    And then I had my son I had had my son in 2011 and through that experience and knowing a lot of other moms and, you know around that time and everything, and knowing a lot of people that struggled with postpartum depression and anxiety and everything, I I knew I also had an interest in that.

    And so I really It, it kind of all ties together in the sense of like wanting to help people going through kind of major life events. It's like that transition of like, I used to. Feel like I had my life together, , and then something happened and like everything has been turned upside down and and now I'm here.

    So yeah. There's nothing like a chronic illness or having a kid or both right, right. To say every the way you moved through the world no longer works. Mm-hmm. exactly. And so so those are really my three areas that I focus on the most. And then, you know, anxiety and depression and stuff. You know, all relationship problems, like all, you know, come along with all of that.

    But those are really my, my three areas. And then I ended up, you know, I had the chronic migraines and then nobody had looked at my neck for, I don't know why. It's the medical system. So, you know no one has common sense, but nobody had looked at my neck for. A few years after I was diagnosed, and then they finally looked at my neck and they were like, oh, you have a bulging disc and you have these two things that are fused together that shouldn't be fused together, and that's probably contributing to your migraines,

    So I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, probably. And so now I, you know, get treatments for my neck. And then, and then I got diagnosed with narcolepsy a year later. So, That is right. It was kind of like one thing after another, after another. . And so each time it was kind of that cycle of like, you know another thing and having to adjust to it and having to adjust to different medication and, you know, the whole thing.

    Yeah. Can we talk, we haven't talked about narcolepsy on the podcast yet. Mm-hmm. Hmm. curious if you can tell us a little bit about that and has anything improved with that? Does it stay the same? Tell yeah. What is that experience like for you? Yeah, so I'm, I'm lucky in the sense that I don't have the cataplexy, I don't have the, like, falling down like with a muscle weakness which is always portrayed in the movies where people just like fall out, you know, and collapse.

    So really it's excessive daytime sleepiness and I've, you know, Went through a sleep study and then you, you have to go through a nighttime sleep study and then you go through a nap study during the day and they time how long it takes you to fall asleep, like just in the middle of the day if you've had no caffeine.

    And it was like 15 seconds , like it was Wow. It it's like way too fast, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. . What is the, for someone who has extreme trouble sleeping and hears that and says, wow, that must be nice. Can you dispel that myth, please? Well, I'll tell you, people with narcolepsy have insomnia too. So I have horrible insomnia at night, which is like this horrible twist of

    You know, it's like, it's like this is this cruel joke of like, you know, at nighttime I'm like wide awake, like. You know, can't fall asleep at night, but during the day, you know, I'm like ready to go to sleep. So it's very weird how that works. And but I had, I had fallen asleep driving a couple times and and so.

    You know, it was like clearly like needed to get treatment cuz obviously that's not safe. And and so they treat it, the medications are unpleasant, They're like, they give them to people in the military to make 'em stay awake for like 48 hours straight . It's like, oh my God. It's like these really intense medications and, and then it's just stimulants.

    Yeah. So it's like Adderall or, you know, stuff like that. But, but it The withdrawal from stuff like that, you know, and I, I don't know if I'm just really sensitive to it, but it, coming off of Adderall and things makes me like super irritable and anxious and I finally found one really long acting one that I could tolerate.

    So I, you know, I got to a place where I have a good combination of stuff and it's, you know, it's in a good place now, but finding it was unpleasant. , my boyfriend can attest in the fact that I was not the most pleasant person to deal with. . Oh, I, I guess that leads me to my next question, like, how did you get through those moments?

    What was your support system like, or your coping mechanisms? . Yeah, I mean, my boyfriend was a huge part of my support system because he was, it's hard, you know, it's hard to like evaluate that when you're in it and try to, you know, evaluate if it's working or if, you know, am I just in a bad mood or like, is this the medication or what, you know?

    But he could definitely tell like this, you know, seems like the medication and, and when I talk to the doctor, they're like, yeah, this is like going through meth withdrawal, like is what you're experiencing. So, so you would be cra you would be cranky, you know? So, so so, you know, he was a big part of it and.

    In terms of helping me evaluate what was working and what wasn't and, and what was tolerable And when it was time to be like, you know, this isn't gonna work. Yeah. So I'm hearing lots of compassion, which we talk a lot about, excuse me, on this, on this podcast. And it sounds like you had the. the experience of having a partner who was able to stay in that compassionate zone.

    Mm-hmm. . Yeah, definitely for the most part. And and I've been in therapy throughout you know, I found another therapist who had some experience with chronic illness. And that was really helpful. You know, to have somebody who had some knowledge around that and you know, could understand the, the medical component of what, you know, the things that were going on and and just, you know, could be supportive in that way which was a huge help.

    Yeah. Definitely Then, yeah, the medical knowledge I think is what. Probably starts to separate. It's the starting point for what separates those of us who specialize in chronic illness. Cuz it really is, it's like learning a different language and if you don't know it, you might inherently make comments that.

    Or like, you know, well your doctor said this, like, and then you try to have you, how, how can I help you just do what your doctor said? And it's like, right, that's not quite, that's not quite helpful. When I have a chronic illness therapy. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, definitely. And I think it goes a long way. Like I have a couple of chronic migraine.

    Clients who, you know, I know it goes a long way when they don't feel like they have to explain everything to me of like, I started this new medication and like this is what it is and this is what it's for and this is what you know. And it's like, you know, I know it goes a long way that I just know what they're talking about and they don't have.

    You know, spend 10 minutes talking to me about, you know Yeah. Like teaching you about it. Right, right. And, you know, it's, I mean, I think that's really helpful for them. Yeah, definitely. And I know on your when, when I was reading through your interview form, we talked a little, you talked a little bit about dating and so I'm hearing that your boyfriend was with you through some.

    Hmm, excuse me, what you're currently, or with your migraines but mm-hmm. , can you talk to us a little bit about that dating phase and were you sick when you were, before you were in a relationship and Yeah. What was some of that like? Mm-hmm. . So I was married when I started, so if you wanna talk about stress leading to the onset of chronic illness, , I.

    My migraine started in May of 2016 and I moved out of my house in October to get divorced. So, you know, yeah, you can make of that what you will . And and my ex-husband was not the most supportive around the migraines like. And he wasn't like actively not supportive, but he just was kind of like, I don't know, just kind of annoyed by them

    Mm. Or just kinda as if they're some kind of choice. Yeah. Like it was kind of annoying to him that they existed. And And I will say we have a much better relationship now and we have a son and and he's always willing to like, take my son if I'm sick and I need him to, and you know, like we do much better living separately

    So but yeah, it was, it was hard dating, I think. And knowing like. You know, like knowing kind of when to tell people or when to like, you know, if you're on a date and you can feel one coming on and it's like, you know, not wanting to be like, I need to go home , like, I feel sick. You know, and I think that can be really hard.

    And I know for my clients it can be really hard of like, when. Disclose and how much to disclose and and you know, not wanting to hide it. From people, but at the same time, not wanting to like, just come right out of, of the gate at the, at the same time. You know, and I think it's, I think it's a delicate balance.

    You know, and I, I always think of the, I think it's a Brene Brown thing where she talks about like the marble jar and it's like, You put one marble in with like something you're vulnerable about and they put one marble in and like, you kind of keep going back and forth and it's like, you know, you kind of like work your way up to that's true.

    I haven't had heard that one before. Like this, like gradual like give and take process. That's right. Can you, can you expand on that piece a little bit for clients who mm-hmm. , because this comes up a lot in therapy. Mm-hmm. dating, chronic illness, when to disclose, and I like that example of the marbles, cuz Yeah.

    Really if you, if you think about it, it really is. It's like anything else that you're talking about, but mm-hmm. , because it's such a big part of our lives. It feels it can be bigger. But it, it also, I feel like is just another vulnerable marble that you're putting into this relationship jar. Yeah. Yeah.

    And I think it depends on what the illness is too. Like, I think, cuz I think it's hard to make like a blanket statement about it because some people's, you know, you really can't hide from the beginning. And so it's like, it's right out there. From the get go and you know, you're not gonna be able to hide it.

    Yeah. So you might as well just kind of lead with it and like acknowledge the elephant in the room, like it's right there. But I think for something like migraines, it's, you know, something you can. Wait a little bit and, and share, you know, as they're sharing more personal stuff and, and not I think people have a tendency to like, See it as this really big deal when it's them and like it's gonna be this deal breaker.

    And, and oftentimes to the other person, it's like, they're kind of like, okay, . You know, they often get this reaction from the other person that's just kind of like, okay. You know, like that. They don't have this huge reaction. And so, you know, waiting a little bit and not just busting out with it right away I think totally makes sense.

    Can we talk about maybe some of the fears that come up on, you know, on. The end of the person with the chronic illness. You know, like, like to what you just said, we, we have it in our heads that it's gonna be this big deal breaker. And your experience with yourself, with clients, is this based on shame?

    Is this based on, you know improper or even proper perceptions of what it's like to live and what that means of the other person? Can we go into some. Yeah, I mean I think it's based on shame. I think it's based on the fear of being a burden. I think. You know, they don't wanna you know, put the other person out and like trouble them.

    And you know, but a lot of it is stuff. They could either ask the person or that they need to trust that the other person will tell them if that's happening. And until the other person says something like it's on the other person to say something like, right. If they really are being a burden that's on the other person to say like, I don't wanna do this.

    It's too much like you're asking too much. . there's some assumptions I think that we make, like one, it's gonna be too much for them, and two, if we if we don't get that out of them to say that they're just gonna hide it. Like they're gonna feel burdened and they're not gonna even say anything and mm-hmm.

    what are some other assumptions that come up for us? Yeah, I mean, I think people think it's gonna, How the person feels about them you know, that they're not going to care about them in the same way that they're, you know it's going to change their feelings. And just all kinds of things in terms of their, the other person's perception of 'em.

    And And a lot of times I think if you ask the other person, it's like, it's, it's not, you know, nothing, it doesn't, doesn't really change anything. What happens if, if, let's say their assumption is right and it does change something. What, what is the, the way that you work with that internally? What are some, yeah, I mean, I think it depends on what it changes, but.

    Usually it's, it's not like a, it's not a disaster. It's it, you know, it might change something in the sense of like, okay, they're not, you know, immortal. They're not, you know, like they're, they could potentially get sick. Like there's, you know, but it's something that would've changed eventually. Anyway. It's, you know, it's, Anything that's catastrophic.

    It's just kind of a, you know, a realization of like, this person isn't perfect. And, and oftentimes when I've worked with people, it's like, you're gonna realize. You're both not perfect , like that realization's gonna happen like at some point, you know, I don't know when, but like it's, you know, it's on its way, like it's gonna happen.

    So it's, you know, it's just happening now, but but yeah, y you know, usually it seems to be something like that, that like it's, you know, a, a perfectly normal realization. That's, that's true. And yeah, and not catastrophic. It's just, you know, a normal realization. I, I'm hearing that the, the advice I guess is, you know, we are so focused on if somebody's gonna like us or accept us, really, when you start to accept yourself more and know that it's okay to have, it's okay.

    I don't even know the right way to say it cuz I wanna say it's okay to have imperfections, but that gives the insinuation that, you know, we're imperfect because of whatever we're bringing to the table. But as you're saying, we're all imperfect and this is my stuff. You have your stuff, we're gonna figure out.

    We both have stuff. Right. So we just work on accepting ourselves and. Showing up to the table with that acceptance, knowing that if you don't accept, if the person across the table doesn't accept me there would've been something else anyway in the relationship where it would've been a deal breaker like that isn't gonna work out.

    Mm-hmm. . Exactly. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, just because one person has a chronic illness and. Might be something they have to deal with. You know, the other person's gonna have something like, just cuz they don't have a chronic illness doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with them. . You know, it's like the, there's gonna be something exactly going on with them.

    They've got some kind of baggage, so, yeah. Yes. It's might not be as obvious or something, but. That's still there. So, yeah. I'm curious if you wanna talk a little bit more about the beginning stages of your health journey, and that could be related still to dating or not but kind of like what do you feel like you did right?

    What do you feel like you would've done differently? Yeah. I feel like I. Did the best I could to find medical professionals to help me , but I wish I had like somehow it's like, I don't think I could have, but like I wish that I had, you know, found different people cuz I had some really bad experiences. And I I had a, I had a guy at the Shepherd Center that I saw, and I was like, it's the Shepherd Center.

    Like it's, you know, the Shepherd Center. It's amazing, whatever, who told me I didn't have migraines and he wasn't gonna give me opiates. And that was our whole conversation and I was. What and I and I, I wanna even clarify. Did you even ask for them or was that just like out thinking? No, that was just what he said, you know?

    Yeah. I was like, what are you talking about ? Oh my goodness. And then that's, and the reason why I even knew you that you probably didn't ask to begin with is cuz I've had two clients tell me, not from the Shepherd Center, but from different doctors where that was right out the gate, what they said, and it.

    Dude, I'm not even looking for pain meds. Like, yeah, can you just help me? and migraines are like classic because I've been to the ER so many times for migraines and like they, it's like such a pill seeker because you can't test for it. You can't, you know, like prove it. And so it's such a drug seeker thing, you know?

    So you just get treated like shit. And, but the guy, oh, he was so weird and he he then gave me trigger point injections in my neck. And when I had side effects, my whole arm went numb. And I called his office and the nurse said, he doesn't wanna see you. And just like fired me over the phone. . It was so weird.

    That's traumatic. So like, so traumatic. You know, I had some experiences like that where I was just like, and I was doing what he, he wanted me to see the pain psychologist and do physical therapy and I had signed up for that and I was like going and so I was like, I don't know what else you wanted me to.

    Oh my gosh. It sounds like an ego thing, right? He couldn't figure it out, so he put the on you. So just, you know, like, I don't know that I could have done anything better. Like, I was trying to like go to the best place I knew of and like, you know I will say like, as far as that, cuz I, I wanna make for people listening, like, by the way, there is a, well she, she works in the MS department.

    There are some really great therapists at the Shepherd Center that I know. Yeah. But even like, I've heard stories about this from Emory, from Mayo Clinic and the reason why I'm, I guess, eliminating the names is because, like you said, you think it's like this big prestigious place, but the people working there are, are all, are all just normal people who have their own shit, their own egos, their own triggers, their own lack of education or education.

    And you can get really lucky going to your local er, finding some doctor who hasn't been burnt out yet and really gives you some solid advice and gets you help. And then you, you can go to a place like Shepherd or Mayo and that's what happened. Like I went and saw a neurologist who was good. and her partner.

    And then I had to switch, I think, cuz of insurance or something. I had to switch. And then I got hooked up with my current neurologist, who I adore. Who d Like when I first met him, he just sat down and was like, tell me your story. Like tell me the whole thing. And like, he has worked with me for like years and that's amazing.

    Like. Gets me set up on Botox. He knows that Botox doesn't last me 12 weeks, it'll last me nine and a half weeks for whatever reason, Mm, whatever mysterious reason that is, insurance thinks it. She'll last 12, but it's like, doesn't for some reason. And he help you get that approved with, he like helps me like get that all like, you know, like taken care of and You know, like he's amazing.

    And and so it just, you know, it's like, I think the thing I did right is just like, keep going , you know, like I just like kept. Looking and kept going and didn't just completely give up after like some bad experiences because yeah, the beginning was, was just bizarre and awful. You know, and then I think of these people who don't have the resources and don't, you know, have the ability to, Looking and, you know, yeah, it'd be awful.

    Yeah. Can you tell me maybe a little bit about what your typical clients look like in private practice? Mm-hmm. , you know, age and experiences. What do you do? You tend to gravitate towards one type of. Not just one type, but gravitate towards, you know, a general client. So I've got kind of a range.

    I, I see adults, so like my youngest client's 22, but then well I guess I've got a 25 year old too. So. Young adult to adult. And then they're all pretty high achieving. Like even my, you know, my chronic illness. People are all pretty high achieving. They push themselves pretty hard. A lot of what we work on is like, Are you sure you should be working?

    It's eight o'clock at night. , like, slow down. Yes. And so it really is like a big focus of our work is like boundary setting and you know, them not wanting to. Use their chronic illness to like, you know, get out of doing stuff, you know, and it's like, it's not really getting out of stuff. It's just, you know, acknowledging that like you need a break.

    I know I, my, I've got some clients like that and the way that I explained it is like this symptom, it's not necessarily. , this conversation gets really tricky. It's not that stress just inherently causes a chronic thing, pain, illness, disease, whatever. It's, but it does exacerbate and, mm-hmm. stress kind of, if there's already a, think about like the weakest link and something, you know, think about an anchor and there is one link that's weak, right?

    And, and something crashes into that anchor, a large whale or whatever. That anchor might be incredibly strong and not break anywhere else except for that one link, which now everything is derailed from the anchor, no longer can do its job. Mm-hmm. stress is like the whale. And it's not that we wanna fear stress, but we wanna figure out why are we overworking?

    What is the, the guilt or the shame, or the. The things that are coming up around that. So yeah. Can you speak to that a little bit Completely? Yeah. I mean, I think. The stress of, of wanting to do things perfectly and, and almost like overcompensating for the illness. I think a lot of times, like I have clients who have to miss work to go, you know, to doctor's appointments to go get infusions, to go get, you know, Procedures done.

    And so then they feel like they have to come back and like work, you know, double time to like make up for that. And it's like, you know, you have sick days, , like that's what those are for. That's, you know, the point of them is to take them. So. You know, I think a lot of, a lot of work around that and just perfectionism in general.

    Like I, I work with a lot of people around like, you know, adequate is like just fine, you know, like being adequate is mm-hmm. . Like perfectly okay. Like there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, you get your job done. You don't need to go like above and beyond and, and way, you know, way above what was asked for.

    And so it's, it's a lot of that. And But yeah, they, you know, and then, you know, chronic illness wise, I, I see a lot of migraines and Crohn's and gastroparesis and what else? Diabetes and different Kind of like arthritis and kind of pain, like, you know, fibromyalgia that kind of stuff.

    Yeah, and, and especially in those stress really does it, it can really even bring on a symptom. Again, it's not that like yeah, completely the symptom wasn't lingering somewhere, but that, that high levels of stress really does just kind of illuminate it like firework. Yeah. Completely, completely. And it just, yeah.

    You know, we talk a lot about burnout and how, you know, how much that can just accentuate, you know, all those symptoms. What are some of the fears that come up for people if they are gonna. Try to stop working so much, or overworking, what are some of the fears they have that keep them from doing that, that you then kind of help them work through?

    I get a lot of people who are afraid that like if they let themselves rest, that they'll just like, never stop , you know? And I'm, I'm constantly telling people like, You're not the type of person , like I, I have no concern that like you're gonna all of a sudden just like not do anything. You know, because they're like so far in the one direction of like constantly working that like if you give yourself a little slack, you're not gonna all of a sudden go way in the other direction and.

    Become a couch potato that does nothing and you know, never goes back to work. But that's a fear like that a lot of people have where it's like, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give myself this little bit of slack and then I'm just gonna like, stop . It's gonna keep well, it's funny. Completely stop working.

    You know, as you said that, I'm like, it's funny, the fear of. If I rest, I'll never stop resting. But they're not scared of the fact that if I, if I work, I'm gonna keep working , and, and when I say they, I'm really, I'm, I've fallen this category. So please, y'all take this with , with a lighthearted air about it.

    I'm not, I'm not chastising anyone. I definitely have. Have to learn and relearn this all the time. Mm. I'll think, you know, oh, I've learned, I've learned the art of balance and rest, and then there's just a little bit too much white space on my calendar and I'm like, oh, oh, what can I fill it up with

    Well, and and that's what I tell people all the time too. It's like it took me years to schedule. Like to do my schedule, like as if I have migraines. Like I would, you know, it'd be, you know, I got 'em in 2016 and it would be 2020 and I'd be like, no, like I can do this. like fill up my calendar. And even though like my head gets worse, the later in the day I go, I'd be like scheduling people at four and five.

    And my boyfriend, it would drive my boyfriend crazy cuz he'd be like, what are you doing ? You know? And he is like, why are you scheduling yourself like you don't have migraines? And I'm like, well cuz I don't wanna have migraines , you know? Like I know as you think, I just wish I didn't have 'em. And it's like, you just keep doing it.

    But I'm like, it takes a long time to like sink in and be like, oh, okay. Like I actually have. Like schedule is of, you know, my life is my life. Like, no, that's such a good point. Like, I don't want to have them. So I live in a, a state of denial. Like maybe today I can yes. When I was pregnant I had migraines almost every day.

    And there's nothing you can take. That's awful safely when you're pregnant. I, that's awful. There are some awful, I tried a couple different things. Take like Tylenol or something, but Yeah. Which does nothing. Nothing. Don't even try. Yeah. Does nothing. That's terrible. That's the only time mine went away. Oh yeah.

    That was like a nice respite for me of like not having, I hear that a lot like pregnancy, bringing those symptoms away. I did have other symptoms that went away during pregnancy. But yeah, I was still working like 50 hours a week and I was private practice and agency and oh my gosh, I don't know. Oh gosh.

    I then, I, I mean I took four months off though. But I think that's a part of the problem, right? We. We work really hard and then we crash really hard, mm-hmm. , which is why I love, now I'm just in private practice. Yeah. Then I filled my time up with the podcast . But, but it's, it's much more on my own terms.

    Like I, I didn't post the Friday before. New Year's. I try to pu, I try to publish every two weeks and sometimes it goes every four weeks. Like it's happened two or three times. And yeah, I just have to like, yeah, be kind to myself and know, let it go. Yeah. Yeah. I mean doing agency and private practice has to be, that had to be really hard and, and being pregnant and.

    And I moved, I moved home and I got a puppy . Oh my God. a little bit crazy. Yeah. But I'll say I, I'm like, oh, I knew when I was, I was at UGA when I got pregnant. I was doing my postdoc when I got pregnant and they offered me a job, like there was a job opening for a psychologist, you know, the next year. And, but I was like, it's eight to.

    And I have to drive an hour to get here, . And I was like, oh, thank you. No, thank you . . Just so glad you do private practice . Yes. Like I'm just gonna go straight into private practice cause Yep. It was, oh my gosh. Yeah. Cuz that's crazy. That's, so, that makes me think of some of the fears, the question earlier that I asked, like what are the fears?

    And I think another one is like, well if I don't take this opportunity, I'm never gonna get another one. and this opportunity says I have to work nine to six, and if I don't take it, what's gonna happen? So yeah, it, it takes, you know, all the stuff that I talk about on this podcast, it takes a mix of hard work, luck, privilege, you know as well as sometimes therapy or really good mentors or, mm.

    It's a lot of trial and error and learning and failing and then learning more, and, So really, I mean the main skill we're trying to develop is being comfortable with challenge and continuing on in the face of challenges, cuz this whole thing is just a one big challenge. completely. Yeah. It is and, and sometimes it's easier than others.

    Like I think it's harder for me to challenge myself now because I've gotten comfortable, like it was easy for me to leave U G A because I was so used to being broke. and a graduate student, you know, and my husband at the time was a graduate student, so we had no money. So I was like, well, I'll just start a private practice that is, I already, that don't have any money.

    I'm like, you just do this . But like the idea of doing something like that now is like, oh my gosh, that's. Terrifying. Like, I can't do that. You know? It's like I've gotten an 11 year old and I'm like, I, I have a house and you know, like I can't just, you know, do something like that now. But absolutely at the time it was like, whatever we're, we have no money, we'll just, you know, make this work.

    And so yeah, I think context is important too. Absolut. I like that example. It's like, no, yeah. Fear, right? Like just moving past the fear, realizing what you're able to do in your circumstances. And it sounds ironic. Mm-hmm. , but you were able to leave because you had no money. . Yeah. Not because you had, if you had more, you'd be like, no, I can't lose this.

    Right. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't really giving anything up. I was just, you know, staying the same and just kinda. I was used to it. didn't make much of a difference. , it was like, yeah. So I have two more questions before we go. Yeah, sure. I wanna know if you can give listeners a piece of work life balance advice, what would it be?

    And then this might also be in the same question. Do you have your kind of go-to confidence boosters when you're feeling down or not enough? Mm-hmm. so. I think work-life balance is kind of bullshit. , I love it. Cuz I just think it's like, I think when people talk about it, it's like this, I don't know this, there's this like, ideal.

    Picture in people's mind of like, everything's in balance and like I'm working the perfect amount and I'm at home the perfect amount, and everything's like wonderful. And, and I just I think it sets up this false idea that like everything can be imbalance all at once, and that you can like, stay in that place.

    I think you can have it for like a week, , and then you'll lose it, and then you'll get it back again, and then you'll lose it again. And, you know but I think it, I think it is a matter of trying to just like, Figure out, you know, what a good amount of work is for you personally and. Trying to stick to that and realizing that like some weeks you're gonna go over and you'll realize it cuz you'll feel it and adjust and you know, some weeks you'll be under and that's fine and you know, you can make adjustments as you go along.

    But yeah, I think it's, people talk about it like it's this destination and it's like, I don't , I've never gotten there . So I think it's you. It reminds me of the speech. It went pretty viral this past year. And I'm trying to remember her name. I'll find, if you don't know who it is, I will find it and I'll put it in the show notes.

    But she talked about, she's a famous she's famous and she talked about work-life balance and how like, yeah, when I'm, you know, Doing this over here. My house is a mess. And when my house is a mess, you know? Right. I mean, when my house is clean, I'm not doing so well at work and when I'm a great mom.

    Mm-hmm. So it's, yeah. What are you willing to sacrifice at the time so that the thing that's most important to you at this phase in your life can get done? Mm-hmm. . Exactly. Because something you know, it's like you either need help with. Parts of it, or like something's gotta give. I mean, it, it just, I think it's hard to have everything in balance and find that like magical place

    Yeah. I think it's a myth. Unless you live with, I mean it's, part of it is just our culture, right? We're very hyper independent. But when you. And there's, there's problems that come with like more communal ways of living too, but when you live more communally or with your extended family and whatnot, right?

    Mm-hmm. , you know, grandma's cleaning the house every day and, and dad is cooking every day and like you're out working and bringing money home for the groceries and. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, if I had a personal chef and housekeepers coming every day and, you know, , all your work-life balance would be great and be all set.

    But as it is, no one's volunteered to do that yet. So love it. Haven't found it yet, but, but I have gotten better at it. And I think that is the thing. Like I think you can get better at it and I think you can get close where it's not like completely out of whack. And I think for a long time I was like completely out of whack.

    Mm-hmm. Which was making me sicker. So I do think there is like progress to be made to where you can. You know, decently close. It's just not gonna be perfect. But I think you can find a place where you're like, you know, getting, getting there, you're getting close to where you're not like making yourself sick with stress right.

    And that kind of thing. So when you get better, your skills improve in different areas, and then it doesn't take as much energy to maybe cook or clean or mm-hmm. do this thing at work because you've learned how to be more efficient or decided what's important and what's not. Mm-hmm. . So then, yeah, you're able to feed yourself every day at a certain point, and then you can focus your energy on learning to do something else.

    Right. So with time and age, it does get easier. I can attest to that. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And so lastly, yeah. Do you have any go-to confidence boosters that you, you kind of use when, when either you or your clients are feeling down or, or not enough? Yeah, so I was thinking about that cuz I'm really bad at like cheering myself up when I feel that way.

    And so I was thinking about like what I. When I feel that way or like how I try to manage that. And I think there's a few things that I do. I generally talk to the people that care a lot about me and try to get their feedback or their input because cuz if I'm feeling that way, and I try to say stuff to myself.

    I generally am like you're full of shit, . Like, I don't, I don't believe it. You know? Mm-hmm. , so I'm just like, mm-hmm. , whatever. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. So I try to you know, talk to my boyfriend, talked to my good friends talked to my mom, talked to my son and. You know, ask them to tell me something nice about myself or, you know, something positive about myself or something they're proud of me for, or anything like that that like will help kind of lift my mood.

    And that seems to help clients too, cuz I think, I feel like One of the downfalls of C B T is. You know that whole argument, not argument, but that whole conversation you can have with clients where it's like, they'll be like, I'm a piece of crap. And you're like, what evidence do you have that you're a piece of crap?

    And they're like, I don't know, but I just feel like I'm a piece of crap. And like that's just goes around in circles where it's like, you know, they can list evidence that they're not a piece of crap, but then they're like, well, I still feel that way, . Exactly, exactly. It's like, so it's like, well, okay. That's why I was so drawn to acceptance and commitment therapy and mm-hmm.

    somatic experiencing things like that. Cause mm-hmm. . Yeah. You feel how you feel, right? Like it just, yeah, it's. Is, you know, they are where they are and so, you know, having them, you know, like why don't you ask for some feedback from other people, like what they think of you. Yeah. You know, and, and internalize the, because it's in, we heal in relationship, right?

    And so that seems to go a lot farther. And help a lot more. And and just gets them talking to another person about how they feel and you know, like starting to have that conversation. And so, you know, that's, that's kind of my go-to yeah, for that and for, yeah, when I'm not feeling great. Yeah.

    Yeah. That's great. Thank you for that. I think those are really great things to think about and try to incorporate more into our lives. Everyone who listens to this podcast knows, I think relationships are the most important thing in our life. Mm-hmm. To any way that we can just connect in a way that helps us and it helps the other person.

    You know, it's reciprocal, so. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Anything else you wanna leave listeners with? I don't think so. I think I would just really encourage people to to go to therapy. Yeah. If they have a chronic illness. , I think it's, yeah, it's really hard to deal with and . And I think it's one of those things that can be extremely isolating and and it just, you know, therapy or group therapy for it you know, I think can be extremely helpful.

    And I don't know that people always associate it with going to therapy. I wish more physicians like, kind of recommended that as like kind of an automatic thing, you know? I feel like a lot of them even have stopped or scared to give mental health referrals because people. You know, have really spoken out about, like, you think it's in my head, I don't need therapy.

    Right. Yeah. Just educating doctors I think on like how to make that referral. Yeah. But it's not like they're saying that, it's just Yeah. That people need the support and Right. Because yeah, I mean I feel like it's, it's just really helpful. Cuz it's a hard road. I think it can be really helpful. Yeah.

    Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Oh yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. It was a pleasure. One more thing for the listeners. You, you had mentioned group therapy, so I do have a group currently running for people who are in Georgia. So if you are listening and you're, you live in Georgia, you're looking for a group environment, feel free to email me, destiny Destiny winter.com.

    Great.

Episode Summary and Notes

Meet Dr. Ginny, a clinical psychologist based in Duluth, Atlanta, who specializes in working with clients dealing with chronic illness and trauma. Dr. Ginny generously shares her journey into this specialized field and how her own experiences have shaped her approach to therapy.

The Early Years:

Dr. Ginny's journey into the world of psychology began in 2006 when she started working with clients as a generalist in university counseling centers. Her dedication to helping people navigate their mental health challenges led her down a path of continuous learning and specialization.

A Personal Turning Point:

In 2016, Dr. Ginny's life took an unexpected turn when she was diagnosed with chronic migraines. This pivotal moment not only altered her own life but also ignited a desire to specialize in working with individuals dealing with chronic illnesses. She recognized the need for therapists who could empathize with the unique challenges of chronic health conditions.

Understanding the Medical System:

Dr. Ginny's personal experience with chronic migraines provided her with invaluable insights into the complexities of the medical system. She understands the frustration of seeking a diagnosis, enduring ineffective treatments, and experiencing medical gaslighting. This first-hand knowledge has equipped her to better support her clients on their medical journeys.

The Intersection of Chronic Illness and Trauma:

One of the eye-opening realizations for Dr. Ginny was the strong correlation between chronic illness and trauma. Many individuals with chronic health conditions also carry the weight of past traumas. Recognizing this intersection, Dr. Ginny decided to expand her expertise in trauma therapy.

Embracing EMDR:

Dr. Ginny's commitment to her client's well-being led her to explore evidence-based trauma treatments. She underwent training in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), a therapeutic approach that helps individuals process and heal from traumatic experiences. This additional training allows her to address both the emotional and physical aspects of her clients' struggles.

A Holistic Approach:

Dr. Ginny's approach to therapy is holistic. She understands that the mind and body are interconnected, and her experiences have reinforced the importance of addressing both aspects. Her therapy sessions are informed by her deep empathy and medical knowledge, providing clients with a unique and comprehensive support system.

Empathy from Experience:

Dr. Ginny's journey into specialization is fueled by a profound desire to help individuals facing significant life transitions. Her own experiences, including postpartum depression and anxiety, have given her unique insights into the complexities of perinatal mental health. She understands firsthand the emotional turbulence that can accompany motherhood, allowing her to provide empathetic and effective support.

The Intersection of Chronic Illness and Mental Health:

Dr. Ginny's chronic migraine diagnosis in 2016 marked a pivotal moment in her life and career. She realized the importance of having therapists who can comprehend the intricacies of navigating the medical system while dealing with a chronic illness. Her experiences with medical gaslighting and the frustration of ineffective treatments have informed her approach to therapy.

A Life Altered by Chronic Illness:

Chronic illness has a way of reshaping one's life. Dr. Ginny candidly shares that it forces individuals to adapt to a new reality where the routines that once worked are no longer effective. This significant life shift inspired her to specialize in helping others who are on a similar journey.

The Nexus of Chronic Illness and Trauma:

One remarkable insight Dr. Ginny gained during her specialization journey is the strong connection between chronic illness and trauma. Many individuals with chronic health conditions also carry the weight of past traumas. This realization prompted her to expand her expertise to include trauma therapy, further enhancing her ability to provide comprehensive care.

Bringing EMDR into the Fold:

Dr. Ginny's commitment to her client's well-being led her to explore evidence-based trauma treatments. She embarked on training in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), an approach that helps individuals process and heal from traumatic experiences. Her dedication to holistic care is evident in her therapy sessions, which address both the emotional and physical aspects of her clients' struggles.

A Personal Struggle with Narcolepsy:

Dr. Ginny's medical journey took an unexpected turn when she received a narcolepsy diagnosis. Fortunately, she does not experience the cataplexy often seen in movies where individuals suddenly collapse due to muscle weakness. Nonetheless, the diagnosis added another layer of complexity to her life.

Navigating Narcolepsy:

Dr. Ginny provides a glimpse into her experience with narcolepsy. While it presents its challenges, she maintains a positive outlook and continues to adapt. Sharing her journey with narcolepsy serves as a reminder that life's twists and turns can lead to personal growth and resilience.

Seeking Medical Help:

Dr. Ginny embarked on her health journey with determination, seeking the assistance of medical professionals to address her chronic migraines. Her proactive approach reflects her commitment to finding relief from her condition.

Misguided Medical Guidance:

Unfortunately, Dr. Ginny encountered healthcare professionals who failed to provide the support and understanding she needed. One notable instance was a doctor at the Shepherd Center who dismissed her migraines as non-existent and erroneously assumed she sought opiates. This encounter highlights the common issue of medical gaslighting experienced by many individuals with chronic illnesses.

Traumatic Medical Experiences:

Dr. Ginny opens up about a traumatic experience where she received trigger point injections in her neck, resulting in alarming side effects. When she sought assistance for these complications, the response from the medical professional's office was shocking and disheartening. Such experiences can be emotionally distressing and profoundly impact one's trust in the healthcare system.

The Importance of Finding the Right Team:

Dr. Ginny's story underscores the critical importance of finding a medical team that listens, believes, and supports individuals with chronic illnesses. Her journey serves as a reminder that the road to diagnosis and effective treatment can be long and challenging, but perseverance and advocacy are essential.

Learning from the Past:

Reflecting on her journey, Dr. Ginny acknowledges the limitations of her past experiences with healthcare professionals. While she wished she could have found different doctors, she recognizes that she did her best to navigate a complex and often frustrating medical system.

Empathy in Practice:

Dr. Ginny's encounters with the healthcare system have deeply informed her practice as a clinical psychologist. Her experiences have cultivated a heightened sense of empathy and understanding for her clients who face similar medical challenges.

Conclusion:

Dr. Ginny's journey from a generalist therapist to a specialist in chronic illness and trauma is a testament to her dedication to helping others. Her personal experiences have added a layer of understanding and empathy that greatly benefits her clients. Through her work, she offers a beacon of hope to those navigating the challenging waters of chronic illness and trauma, reminding them that they are not alone on their journey to healing and recovery.

Destiny Winters
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