Ep 71: How Universal Design Benefits Everyone with Tiffany Yu
Tiffany Yu is a remarkable disability advocate, author, and community builder who has dedicated her career to creating a more inclusive world. As the founder of Diversability, an organization celebrating its 15th anniversary, and author of the recently published book The Anti-Ableist Manifesto: Smashing Stereotypes, Forging Change, and Building a Disability-Inclusive World, Yu brings a unique perspective to disability advocacy and inclusion.
The Four Pillars of Yu's Advocacy Work
Yu's disability advocacy work centers around four key areas:
1. Social Health Through Community
Diversability, founded in 2009, acknowledges that social health is crucial to overall well-being. The organization focuses on building connections within the disability community, recognizing that social isolation often compounds the challenges faced by disabled individuals.
2. Education and Visibility
Drawing from Emily Ledao's philosophy that "to make the world more accessible, we need to make our disability experiences more accessible to the world," Yu openly shares her lived experiences while respecting that not everyone can or wants to do so.
3. Economic Empowerment
Leveraging her background in finance, Yu works to support disabled people's livelihoods. Since 2017, she has run a micro-grant program for disability projects, understanding that even small amounts can catalyze meaningful initiatives.
Consider the impact of even the smallest amount of change in each of these areas:
Despite comprising approximately 15% of the world's population, disability initiatives and disability advocacy only receive about 2% of philanthropic funding.
In addition, there are over 35 states in the US where it is still legal to pay disabled people below minimum wage. And, if you are dependent on disability benefits, there are caps on your income - enough to make it difficult to afford even a one-bedroom apartment anywhere in the United States.
If disabled people want to work (because there may be some in the community who don't desire to), many are overlooked or disqualified from employment opportunities in one way or another. Disabled people might not even receive a chance to interview because of assumptions others make about their talents, skills, and employment capabilities.
4. Civic Engagement
Yu emphasizes that advocacy can take many forms, from donations to protest participation. She has served on the San Francisco Mayor's Disability Council and currently advises LA28 Olympics and Paralympics.
Tiffany personally used her financial background to create an endowment fund for disability advocacy and inclusion. In the podcast, she shares, “…one of the things that I have appreciated about the structure of an endowment fund - and this is me getting a little nerdy with my finance hat on - is you only need to raise a certain amount in the beginning, and then, 5 percent gets distributed every year. And the rest, the other 95 percent, gets invested in the market, or in different investment funds. So that it can keep growing and then give back.”
Breaking Down Barriers in Employment
One of the most significant challenges that Yu addresses in her advocacy is employment discrimination. A 2019 research report revealed that HR departments and hiring managers often hesitate to hire disabled candidates simply because they're unsure if the person can do the job.
This leads to preemptive disqualification without even having the chance to show that they can fulfill the job requirements.
Yu provides this example:
Many job descriptions might ask a candidate if they can lift 25 pounds, and for Yu, the answer is no. However, she is able to move a 35-pound box from one place to another utilizing using carts and other accommodations, which makes her fully capable of fulfilling that part of the job.
Too often, the application process itself isn’t accessible, and even when applicants do get an interview, the amount of bias that can occur often disqualifies very capable humans.
Yu points out how this creates a cycle of exclusion because they fall into an “assumption funnel,” in which the beliefs that others have are now funneled onto the person with the disability. In turn, this could then lead the disabled person to believe that they actually are not capable.
Yu shares her personal experience with these challenges, particularly in writing her book. Initially believing she couldn't write 90,000 words with one hand (due to arm paralysis), she found the right solution for her through speech-to-text technology. Note: She specifically praises Otter.ai's capabilities!
Ultimately, that’s how her book, The Anti-Ableist Manifesto was born, and is available for purchase now.
The "I Would Benefit From" Culture
Yu advocates for what she calls an "I would benefit from" culture in workplaces. Instead of focusing on limitations or disabilities, this approach emphasizes solutions and accommodations that benefit everyone.
The key to achieving this culture is: shifting perceptions of accommodations as special requests to instead viewing them as natural variations in how people work best.
Examples of "I Would Benefit From" Statements:
"I would benefit from having an agenda before meetings"
"I would benefit from flexible hours"
"I would benefit from knowing the purpose of meetings in advance"
"I would benefit from doing this over a phone call versus a video call"
"I would benefit from more frequent breaks throughout the day"
While corporate environments often rely on personality assessments like DISC or Myers-Briggs to understand work styles, Yu suggests that an "I would benefit from" framework could be more effective.
Unlike traditional assessments that categorize people, this approach focuses on practical needs rather than abstract personality traits. It also empowers employees to articulate their needs directly, which allows for more open and productive conversations in general.
Despite the benefits of this approach, many people often misunderstand the benefits for all employees, not just those with disabilities, because what benefits one benefits the whole.
This culture shift helps break down traditional barriers between "accommodation" and "preference."
For instance:
Someone might benefit from flexible hours due to chronic illness
Another person might benefit from the same flexibility due to being a night owl
A third might benefit because of childcare responsibilities
The end result is the same: increased productivity and job satisfaction through flexible scheduling.
Yu suggests that organizations can begin implementing this culture by:
Making it normal to discuss working preferences openly
Including "I would benefit from" discussions in onboarding processes
Regularly checking in with team members about their needs
Creating systems that allow for multiple ways of working
Focusing on outcomes rather than specific methods
This approach aligns with the broader principle of inclusive design, where multiple paths to success are not just allowed but encouraged.
The Curb-Cut Effect
The idea that design for disability benefits society at large is known as "the curb-cut effect."
Yu explains that this principle got its name from a radical act by wheelchair users in the Bay Area, who took it upon themselves to cut curbs into sidewalks to make them accessible. What started as an act of defiance became a universal design standard that benefits countless people beyond its original intended users.
The curb-cut effect demonstrates the widespread benefits of accessibility features, such as:
Parents pushing strollers
Delivery workers with hand trucks
Travelers with wheeled luggage
Cyclists and scooter users
Anyone moving heavy items
More Examples of the Curb-Cut Effect
Yu shares several other innovations that originated from accessibility needs but now benefit everyone:
Electric toothbrushes
Audiobooks
Wheeled luggage (which Yu notes wasn't introduced until airports became wheelchair accessible)
Text-to-speech technology
Closed captions
The curb-cut effect extends beyond physical modifications. When spaces become more accessible:
People with disabilities feel more welcomed into public spaces.
Visibility of the disability community increases.
Those who may be less open about their disabilities can access spaces without having to ask for accommodations.
The burden of constant self-advocacy is reduced.
Everyone benefits from more inclusive design.
Yu points out an important feedback loop: when spaces are inaccessible, people with disabilities may opt out of attempting to access them.
This invisibility then leads to continued inaccessibility because "people forget we exist." Breaking this cycle through universal design helps create a more inclusive society for everyone.
"When we prioritize access," Yu explains, "it means that we're invited into the space so that we can be visible. And at the same time, it makes it so that people who may not feel as open about sharing things related to their disability don't have to. Because they can show up to the space and not have to ask or advocate for access."
Tiffany discusses the fact that inclusive design, which allows everyone to participate regardless of their needs, benefits society as a whole, and it doesn’t have negative effects. Therefore, it shouldn’t be something we hesitate to act on.
And in this day and age, it’s incredibly easy to make media more accessible. Yu's own book exemplifies this, being available in print, audio, and ebook formats.
Even in creating community, Yu emphasizes multiple design variations, such as:
In-person events for those who thrive on face-to-face interaction
Online communities for those who prefer digital connection
Scheduled one-on-one time for those who need more structure
Flexible engagement options for those dealing with varying energy levels or social comfort
This inclusive design approach demonstrates that there's rarely just one "right way" to accomplish a goal. By focusing on the desired outcome while remaining flexible about the method, organizations and individuals can create more accessible and inclusive environments for everyone.
Beyond Compliance: Changing Hearts and Minds
While the Americans with Disabilities Act (1990) provides legal protection, true inclusion requires more than just policy changes.
Yu notes that despite the ADA, unemployment rates for disabled individuals remain twice that of their non-disabled peers. The missing piece, she argues, is changing fundamental attitudes about disability.
Yu's book addresses this by including reflection questions at the end of each chapter, encouraging readers to examine their own biases and assumptions. As she states, "I refuse to believe that a billion of us are bad or broken or need to be fixed."
Building Community and Creating Change
The power of community stands at the heart of Yu's work.
She emphasizes that isolation often serves to maintain existing power structures, while community building can create meaningful change. Through Diversability and her other initiatives, Yu demonstrates how bringing people together can transform individual challenges into collective strength.
Yu's approach to advocacy is multifaceted, combining data-driven business cases (such as the $13 trillion global disability market) with personal storytelling and community building. Her work reminds us that creating an inclusive world benefits everyone, and that change happens through both policy reform and personal transformation.
As we continue to work toward a more inclusive society, Yu's message resonates clearly:
Disability is not a weakness to be overcome but a natural part of human diversity that deserves recognition, respect, and equal access to all aspects of life.
Want to listen to the podcast interview? Click here for Episode 71: How Universal Design Benefits Everyone with Tiffany Yu.
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Episode transcribed with AI and will contain errors that are not representative of the actual word or meaning of the sentence.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC
[00:00:00] If you're watching this video on YouTube or on Spotify podcasts, I apologize for the lighting. I'm filming this video. Um, probably when I should just be in bed, but I'm really trying to get it uploaded and uploaded quickly because I think that this is really probably one of the most important episodes.
I've. Ever recorded, um, because Tiffany has really actionable steps. , she is a disability advocate and just wrote a, um, Phenomenal book, very thorough. Very, in-depth not your typical run of the mill, like disability theory book, which is so important and so needed, but actionable steps are also needed. I really liked that she has an economy background.
She understands money And she talks here about how she invests the money that she receives from fundraising, which then allows money to keep pouring back into the companies and into the efforts that she, she has going right now.
So I really enjoyed my conversation with Tiffany. I hope that you will join her group [00:01:00] diversability. There's a free Facebook group on online. Um, And then you can donate or. Uh, kind of pay what you can. Um, similarly that's how my workshops run. They're always pay what you can is. Suggested value of $17 a workshop, but, um,
I always offer, pay what you can, even if that's $0, , codes. So my membership is also alive now and I'll put the link for that in the description, in the show notes. And if you need a free code for that, please email me. Um,
Unfortunately, the.
Company that I'm hosting my membership through. Um, they could actually probably learn a little bit from our conversation, with my conversation with Tiffany today because it's not universally, it doesn't make things easy and accessible.
Um, And so I apologize for that very much so. And if you want a free. Pass into my membership, [00:02:00] which just has all my past workshops. And over the next year, we'll be growing with, um, more like therapy-related content around having difficult conversations with family members and, um, other things like co-working. Zoom sessions where we might do our physical therapy exercises together, or meal prep or clean your house or things like that.
If you just. Get a lot out of being around other people who are also doing productive things. I know for me, that's really helpful. And so if that's really helpful for you to have that in your community, Please join. The allowed to ask membership that has again just launched, um, that's my membership, but you also absolutely should be joining Tiffany's membership, which has been around for 15 years.
And. It has so much to offer in there. So you've got lots of options available to you today, and I hope that you enjoy this episode.
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Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I'm really excited to talk to you today, Tiffany, about your book. Um, cause I work primarily with people who have chronic [00:04:00] pain and chronic illness, and that is what I see in my therapy practice as well as what this podcast is all about. So I would love for people to hear a little bit about what your work is.
Tell us a little bit about diversability, your book, wherever you'd like to start would be great.
Tiffany Yu: Sure, so hi everyone, my name is Tiffany Yu, uh, as you, as Destiny mentioned, I recently came out with a book called The Anti Ableist Manifesto, Smashing Stereotypes, Forging Change, and Building a Disability Inclusive World, but I kind of see my world My disability advocacy world in terms of like four areas, uh, and if you don't mind, I'll just share the areas very briefly.
So the first is, uh, is DiverseAbility is this organization that actually turned 15 in October. So we started in 2009. But it essentially just acknowledged that social health is a part of our overall well being, in addition to our physical health and our mental health. And [00:05:00] disabled people, I actually think that part of where we become even more disempowered is that all of us have intimate experiences with being socially isolated or lonely or excluded in one way or another.
And so, uh, we have no agenda other than to have us meet each other. And I do believe that And interestingly enough, I actually did not see myself as a disability advocate or as an educator until I started this community and started to meet other people who were movers and shakers in this world. So social health, and then the second is what I call education.
So I'm someone who is very open about my own disability lived experiences, understanding that not everyone is. But I follow this, uh, this quote from Emily Ledao, who says that. In order to make the world more accessible, we need to make our disability experiences more accessible to the world. And I think part of why we continue to encounter so much [00:06:00] inaccessibility is that people forget we exist.
Uh, either they have a narrow view of what disability looks like, or, uh, or we count ourselves out. Of opportunities based on societal assumptions that create limitations for us. And we say, I, I'm not going to go to the concert. And so because people don't see us trying to go to the concert, they don't, uh, they make assumptions about, uh, about the infrastructure of the concert venue, uh, and make it not accessible.
So second, that, that second part is education. And then the other two parts, one is called Economic Empowerment, so kind of taking my own background in finance and figuring out ways that we can better support disabled people's livelihoods. So we run a micro grant for disability projects that we've been running since 2017.
And then the final category is what I call Civic Engagement. Civic engagement and advocacy honestly [00:07:00] looks different for every person. It doesn't mean you have to show up at City Hall or you have to be showing up at the protest. You could make a donation. You could advocate in different ways. So civic engagement for me is How can I create, how can I hopefully create or plant the seeds to create systemic change in the local environments that I'm in?
So previously I served on the San Francisco Mayor's Disability Council, and currently, actually up until the end of this year, I'll be on one of the volunteer advisory working groups for LA28, the Olympics and the Paralympics that are coming, uh, that are coming in four years.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: That's amazing. I am so curious what your favorite part of your work is.
Like, what do you wake up and love to do on a daily? Like, think more micro. What do you love to do?
Tiffany Yu: Ooh. That's such a good question. I will say that doing things like podcasts and talking is something that comes more easily to me. But [00:08:00] I do think about, the thing that I've been doing for the longest amount of time is diversability, is building this community.
And you'll read this in the book, but the definition of community that I use is a group of people who come together to support their own growth and each other's growth. And, You know, not only since 2009, but, uh, we had a little, we had, I had a pause from being involved in diversability up until 2014 and 2015.
And, uh, In 2015, and right now it's 2024, in the last nine years, I've seen so many of my, so many people I've met through Diversability continue to just crush it and make magic and shine. And in a lot of ways, in full transparency, Diversability is probably what I spend the most time on, but it contributes to my livelihood the least.
Uh, if that makes sense. Um, and so, so yeah, and I do think about, I think [00:09:00] about, okay, you know, I could become a full time speaker or I could become a full time content creator where I'm just doing brand partnerships and, and doing these speaking engagements. But at the end of the day, I wonder like, what keeps me going, which is another version of the question you asked.
And it's, I don't know, it's this hope that the people I've met over the last 15 years, and who I see when I look at the disability community, is who you see too.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: That makes perfect sense, yeah. I love that. You mentioned, um, that you're, Like diversability contributes least to your livelihood. And I was curious if that means more like financially, like it's not financially compensating, but there's a rewarding aspect to it.
Is that what you were trying to say? So
Tiffany Yu: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the way I think about it is, and I actually saw. Someone Arlen Hamilton [00:10:00] talk about this, and she's a big advocate for having multiple streams of income. So an exercise that she has is you write down all of the places where you have income coming in, and then there's a second column, which is where all of that income is going.
So as I was putting my list together, I had, I did. Diversability does generate some income. Sometimes we have sponsors coming in, but the majority of that income goes to our community or paying our team members. Um, or paying contributors or speakers at events and other things like that. So, so there is money coming in, uh, but it, but the arrow over to that second column is that it's getting reinvested into our community.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: That, yeah, that makes perfect sense. And so then that brings me to be curious about the economic piece of, um, of what you do. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Tiffany Yu: Yeah, so, uh, I, I call that area economic empowerment and economic empowerment actually ties in, ties in a little bit [00:11:00] to the education part and the civic engagement part because it As I think about, you know, what's been interesting is this book came out a couple of weeks ago, I'm doing a handful of interviews and people are asking, okay, now that the book's out, what's next?
And I'm like, well, can I enjoy that the book is out? But I do think there is part of me that would love to focus more on what I call disability centered economic justice. So even if I look at the statistics out there, despite being around 15 percent of the world's population, disability initiatives and disability advocacy only receives about 2 percent of philanthropic funding.
In addition to that, here in the U. S., there are over 35 states where it's still legal to pay disabled people below minimum wage. And then if you are dependent on disability benefits, there are caps on your income that would make it difficult to afford a one bedroom apartment anywhere in the United States.
So that kind of ties into like the law part. At the same [00:12:00] time, given my own experiences working in the corporate world, I do also understand that if we want to work, because there may be some of us in the community who don't want to, if we want to work, many of us are counted out of employment opportunities in one way or another.
Or we're not even given a chance to interview because of assumptions that people make about our talents and skills and capabilities, uh, to do our job. Um, so, disability centered economic justice, to me, is Uh, is tied into the last goal of the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is called economic self sufficiency.
Can disabled people make enough money to live? Can disabled people make enough money to afford therapy? You know, I'm sure that's a conversation that, that you, you come across as well. And even as we, so, different ways I'm doing that is, Uh, the first was kind of those 1, 000 monthly microgrants that we've been [00:13:00] awarding every single month since 2017.
And it's called the Awesome Foundation Disability Chapter. And we only open up our applications for 10 days every month. Uh, and we're probably averaging about 60 to 100 submissions for a 1, 000 grant. And what that shows me is that not only the demand that's there, but 1, 000, depending on who you are is a lot or a little.
And in 2009, Diversability actually received a 500 grant to get, uh, to get our organization started. And at the time, you know, I was a senior in college, 500. I was like, whoa, look at this. But in addition to that, it was like, oh, someone else thinks this is a good idea. And I'm part of a community where, you know, I feel like we have consistently been limited in terms of dreaming bigger or setting goals, um, outside of people's expectations or assumptions or [00:14:00] limitations on us.
So we've been doing that grant. I've been exploring different ways. So everyone at Diversability, we believe in like no free labor. So we try to find different ways. Like if we're hosting a panel, all the speakers are paid a stipend. Uh, if someone writes a guest post for us, they're also compensated.
Everyone on our team is compensated. I wish it could be more. Um, it's definitely higher than minimum wage. Um, but, uh, But yeah, hopefully, hopefully it will continue to grow, but as, as I mentioned to you, we're kind of, it's, it's kind of like net, net, net zero at the moment. But, uh, I
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: mean, money is also symbolism, right?
And so there's just a symbol, even if you don't have the funds coming in that can give somebody a full salary or a, you know, it's hard to get these things off the ground. You're also symbolizing you are important to me. This is meaningful to me.
Tiffany Yu: Yes, yes. And, um, And I think my latest initiative before, before I figure out outside of this book [00:15:00] how, how else I want to contribute is a couple of years ago, I actually started an endowment fund at my university.
And one of the things that I have appreciated about the structure of an endowment fund, and this is me getting a little nerdy with my finance hat on, is you only need to raise a certain amount in the beginning, and then, uh, 5 percent gets distributed every year. And the rest, the other 95 percent gets invested, uh, in, in the market, or in different investment funds.
So that it can keep
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: growing and then give back.
Tiffany Yu: Yes, yes. So what was interesting was, I actually just ran into a friend who spoke at Georgetown, and I will say, coming out with a book, Has a lot of different emotions, very high highs and actually very low lows that I don't think a lot of people see because the having a book out in the world is the win, right?
Um, and so I was grabbing dinner after one of my book stops and feeling kind of [00:16:00] frustrated that, you know, maybe the book wasn't having, uh, as big of an impact as it could. I mean, it's only been a couple weeks, so this is, you know, This is my own, me being hard on myself and my friend who goes, Tiffany, you know, I spoke at Georgetown and that endowment fund that you created went to help bring me, uh, and cover my honorarium.
Uh, this was my friend to go, uh, be able to speak and share her story at at Georgetown. So in some ways I got to see the direct impact of, of creating something like that. Um, but yeah, I think there's a part of me that's trying not to get what I call like shiny object syndrome, where essentially I'm super proud that diversability has grown our ecosystem to about 80, 000.
But at the same time, you know, even if we are heavy US, we're about 70 percent US. That's, there are 61 million Americans who live with disabilities. 80, 000, that still is a lot of people who I'm hoping they're finding community in their local areas or who may not have [00:17:00] access to community yet.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Can you tell us a little bit more about what the community looks like with diversability and is there a cost associated with it?
Like, what would people need to know if they wanted to just go click and join right now?
Tiffany Yu: Yeah, so we have, we have offerings available at any price point is what I'll say. So we actually have a very loosely, or not even loosely, we have a very loosely moderated Facebook group that is available, which is totally free and it has about 7, 000 members in it.
And, uh, and what I'll share is, we actually do no marketing for the Facebook group, but it's growing by about 20 to 30 new members requesting to join every single week. Um, and in there, that, that is an amazing place to get resources, peer resources, support, and community, and it's also open to non disabled people as well.
Then you're also welcome to follow us across our social media platforms, where we're often times, Like, we have someone on our team who is dedicated to [00:18:00] doing research, and there's tons of research coming out for the disability community right now. Um, and so we have a content team who's, like, putting out more educational information.
Um, and then, uh, if you have a little bit more you want to spend, uh, every, uh, maybe, uh, probably, like, once a month or one, once every other month, we'll end up putting out a public Uh, on a different topic, so we have one coming up around disability history, uh, we've done sessions more like leadership development type sessions, but we've also just done like panel events too on what are your rights as a disabled person in, uh, in employment.
Um, and those events will be made public on our YouTube page, so even if you don't want to join on a sliding scale, which is probably like, 15, 5 to 5 to 30 or, you know, whatever you can afford, you can always catch the recording online as well. Um, and then if you have a little bit more to spend, um, so the first was kind of like the free Facebook community, then you [00:19:00] can join an event and, you know, there's always so much activity going on in the, in the chat.
Um, and while I love asynchronous, uh, I personally, as an introvert, I think thrive more on having time to digest and think more thoughtfully about my responses. Some people want to connect with people in a more live environment so you can join one of our events. Or we also run a membership community that's a little bit more curated.
That again comes back to how can we find paid opportunities for you paid and visibility opportunities for you so you can build your thought leadership. So it's called the diverse ability leadership collective and that is that is also available on the sliding scale membership, but it's there to essentially say, Hey, you know, if you if you want to build your career as an advocate.
Here are a couple different ways that you can kind of become the go to expert. I guess putting out a book is also one of them. Um, but podcast opportunities like this or, uh, other opportunities to get featured in press. [00:20:00] And one thing I feel very grateful for is that I think over the years, um, diversability will, like every once in a while in our inbox, we'll get a note from a journalist or reporter being like, Hey, I'm working on this piece.
I need sources. And we run this huge community, right? So not only can we direct them to our Facebook group, but we can also go and curate, um, curate people from our community if they're looking for very specific perspectives. And if you have even more, you want to spend, you can sponsor, you can sponsor diversability.
Um, And we also have a non profit arm as well, which helps support some of those sliding scale memberships, um, uh, helps pay stipends for, for people in different things. So, so that's the way we've, we're structured so far. Um, we are potentially exploring, uh, As, as it does sound like right now, outside of the sponsorships, most of what we offer is what I would call B2C, so like business to consumer.
But we are exploring if there might be something we [00:21:00] can do that is B2B. Um, and sometimes the B2B are the sponsors coming in who want to get their brand in front of the disability community and potentially something else coming soon.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Oh, good teaser. Is there any other, any other detail you can give around that or is that as much as, as far as you can go?
Tiffany Yu: Well, one thing I noticed, which I guess in some ways kind of ties into the B, the B to C becoming B to B, is not only do we have these reporters and journalists coming to us, sometimes we will have companies and organizations coming to us who are looking to, uh, tap into lived experience to help raise, uh, help raise disability awareness.
And I will say that in the early years of diversability, even we were an unincorporated, like, friends hanging out type of, type of group, we actually got a note in our early years from, uh, very early on, so almost 10 years ago, from the New York Public Library. And I [00:22:00] was living in New York at the time. And the New York Public Library said, Hey, Tiffany, we see that you've been doing these events around New York, uh, that are really focused, are really disability centered, focused on creating a stage for disabled speakers.
We were curious if you could help curate some speakers for us for a librarian staff awareness training. And we would love to feature. people who have different types of disabilities who, uh, who, who, and, and they can talk to, uh, their experiences navigating the library. So, uh, they paid us, uh, they paid us, or they paid our speakers a stipend, and then we kind of did like a commission based thing.
But I, I think that's as, that's as much as I'll share. I mean, in some ways, I think about, How do we scale this work? You know, you can send Tiffany out or you can have Tiffany on your podcast. I mean, and now we can tap into a much larger community of disability advocates that we have, but we can't, we can't go everywhere.
And so, uh, the book is part of [00:23:00] that. And Hopefully that's a little teaser of, like, how do we think about scaling lived experience and can lived experience scale?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, really fascinating, fascinating points. Um, oh, yeah, well, I'm honestly thrilled to be learning so much about your work, and I'm only sorry that I didn't come across it sooner.
Um, I have Another question about, um, especially because you come from a corporate world, I've been thinking a little bit about, I know corporate, corporate loves to, to kind of do things like the disc assessment or like these kind of assessments that, like, are supposed to give you an information about someone's personality and then how that personality works in the workplace.
And then, and ideally, in an ideal world, it doesn't tend to always play out like this. You take those strengths and basically there are no weaknesses. Like everybody, like, you know, Your strength is needed where there just are no weaknesses. [00:24:00] Your strengths all play a part of the team and then we get what we need.
And I had been thinking of, as I was kind of reading through your stuff, I was thinking about, like, do we have anything like that in the workplace already? Where there's somebody with a disability, but. There are these strengths that we have that we are just it doesn't even matter what disability we have because it's so out of the equation with how much we do have to offer.
I don't know if you have any thoughts. I know there isn't a clear question around that. But do you have any thoughts around that?
Tiffany Yu: Yeah, I mean, I would say it's the same assessments. You know, I remember taking Myers Briggs a couple years ago as as part of our like team building leadership, you know, and one of the things we do as a team.
is, uh, I forget what it's called, but, uh, well, it used to be called Luna and then it got bought, but it was L L U N A. And it was essentially like a little questionnaire about how best to work with me. Like, here are the hours [00:25:00] that I work best. Like I prefer email or Slack messages, you know, and, and essentially what I'm hoping we get to is something I call, I would benefit from culture.
And what that means is I would benefit from blank. So for me, and one of my arms is paralyzed, I didn't share, but I, uh, I got into a car accident as a kid. One of my arms is paralyzed. I also live with PTSD. And, uh, I don't even know if it's related to any disabilities, but I would benefit from having an agenda before a meeting.
Or, I would benefit from knowing what the purpose of the meeting is before I go to the meeting. Or, I would benefit from doing this over a phone call versus a video call. Or, I would benefit from, you know, and I'm sure, actually I would love to hear from you, are there things you benefit from?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, I, I benefit from flexible hours, um, uh, flex schedule. I, I benefit from lots and lots of breaks. Um, I'm going to get [00:26:00] more done if I have more breaks and more opportunity to kind of like leave and come back, leave and come back and really just like work on my own time, which is.
That's why I work for myself.
Tiffany Yu: Yeah, so, so the reason why I bring that up is, you know, I actually, I saw a comment on, I saw a comment online recently that said, I'm so excited to explore the ways that you talk about disability as a strength. And I thought about that because I don't know if I agree with that, um, I have strengths, uh, I definitely have a paralyzed arm, uh, my strengths don't diminish the fact that I have a paralyzed arm, but I, but I will, I'll, I'll just share a random example, um, which, which is, uh, you know, sometimes on job descriptions, there will be a requirement, it will say something like, must be able to lift 25 pounds.
Which, for some jobs that's relevant, like package delivery, but for other jobs that's not relevant at all, and it got me thinking about [00:27:00] where are the ways that we are counting disabled people out of, uh, applying for a job in the first place. One thing that was interesting for me is that in one of my early career experiences, I was the most junior person on the team, and my responsibility was to bring the pitch books to the meeting.
So that would technically fall under the must be able to lift 25 pounds. So I knew I had to bring the pitch books to the meeting, but what I did was I put the pitch books in my carry on luggage with wheels, and then I brought them to the meeting. So instead of saying, must be able to lift 25 pounds, is what you're really trying to say, must be able to transport 25 pounds, because the latter I can do.
The former I can do now because I've been doing some weight training, but Probably not for an extended, actually, I've been lifting a lot of, a lot of boxes of books recently, and those are 20 pounds, and, and actually, you know what, I will scrap that. I'm, I'm not able to lift 25 pounds because these boxes are 23 pounds.
I'm probably able to lift them like five steps, but [00:28:00] if I can put them in a wagon, um, and, or I can, you know, transport them a different way, I can definitely do that. So, so I think that goes back to, um, your idea. around, you know, I don't, so I will say like, maybe I don't view my own disability as a strength, but I also don't view my own disability as a weakness, I just view disability as something that I'm living with, that 61 million Americans and over a billion people are living with something where their minds and or their bodies operate a little bit differently.
So if we can transition over to a, I would benefit from fill in the blank culture across the board, then we can all work in ways that, or, I don't, yeah, no, absolutely.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, yeah, that's, no, that's exactly, yeah, because, um. Or even if you, even if you weren't able to lift because of something different, like maybe even you have both arms are able to move, but you have [00:29:00] a muscle fatigued condition where you cannot, like, so you look like you can, people don't really get it, but you can't, you literally can't lift it.
It, I, I get a little frustrated with these job descriptions too, because especially when you're working. Especially when they talk about team building or having a community oriented workplace when really I feel like it's kind of become a buzzword in corporate. If it's so community oriented, I don't need to be the one carrying that if I physically can't.
It's okay for somebody else to pick up that part of the job and I've got plenty to do over here that just doesn't require that particular, um, thing. And then the other thing that comes to mind is like, you know, these very rigid. Work schedules. Cause for me, a flexible schedule is really important. And even in private practice, like we've got therapists who are like, well, I am a night owl.
So I'll actually, I'll take all the people who want to see me from like six to 10 PM. Please don't talk to me at 10 PM. Cause I will be dead asleep and [00:30:00] there's no talking happening. You do not want to see me at 10 PM. But for a lot of my, for some of my colleagues, that is the case. Um, or people who, you know, can do computer work at home or, or even work from home, which.
A lot of companies are pushing back on now for, um, for arbitrary reasons. So, yeah, it's just, it is, it's about looking at truly the whole person and not, um, yeah, it's not about the disability and it's just about, we all have different, different strengths or, or not like different strengths and weaknesses that either have to do with their disability or, or don't.
So let's just look at the whole person.
Tiffany Yu: Yeah. And I think that's part of the reason why we are in the pickle we're in is because I think for those of us who have apparent disabilities, people make assumptions about whether we can or can't do the job. And, and there's, there's a research report from 2019 that I referenced in the book where they asked, HR and hiring managers, [00:31:00] why they either didn't hire the disabled candidate or weren't prioritizing disability inclusion in their companies.
And the top three answers were that they weren't sure if the disabled person could or couldn't do the job. So even, you know, and, and what's been fascinating is I have been thinking. Or, it's been brought to my attention, all of the different points of entry throughout the recruitment process that may count disabled people out.
So, you know, uh, I did a book event with my sister and I told her, I shared that stat. And then she comes back and she goes, well, sometimes like on a resume, like if you're just looking at a resume and then I was like, well, is the application process accessible? Like, could they even submit the application in the first place?
Um, and then if they are able to get the application and the resume through, is there something that happens during the interview process that then, uh, that then some bias that then counts that person out? Because I even look. People can make a lot of assumptions about [00:32:00] what it's like to live with a paralyzed arm.
And I think the biggest, I mean, even I, and I think about this, I call it like the assumption, I haven't come up with the term for it, but it's like the assumption rabbit hole or the assumption funnel. And essentially it goes like this. Because. Because a hiring manager assumes that a person with, who can only use one arm can't type, they don't inter, they don't end up interviewing that person so that person doesn't get the job.
That assumption funnel filters over to me and it says, Because I haven't seen anyone who only types with one arm, I think I can't do the job, so I don't even apply in the first place. So there's kind of the external assumption funnel of the assumptions other people are imposing onto us, and then the ones we internally are experiencing as well.
And one thing I even thought about in regard to writing a book, So I wrote the entire first draft of the book using [00:33:00] speech to text technology. Uh, I love otter. ai, they don't pay me to say it, but they probably should for the amount of time I've talked about them. Um, but my own internalized, I guess my own internalized ableism, my own assumption funnel said, because I can only type with one hand, I, I don't know how I'm going to write 90, 000 words, so I'm not even going to attempt to write a book.
And I'm so grateful for, I don't know whether it's the literary agents or the publishers for pushing through that because then the new, the new limitation became contractual obligations. And it said, Tiffany, You're gonna figure it out. And, and I did, you know, there was part of me that thought, maybe I'll hire a ghostwriter, and then I found out how much they cost, and, and then I was like, okay, I gotta figure out how to write, how to write this book myself.
But yeah, speech to text, having, and then also, the people, you know, I think about some of the feedback I've been getting on the [00:34:00] book, and Some of the more constructive feedback is like not not naming the names of companies who are doing the bad things. And in my mind, I think, I wonder if people just think, I'm here, I wrote a whole book, and then it went to print.
But the number of people who have had to like cover themselves and change things. Editors that I hired, editors from the publisher, copy editors, so many people, uh, so that the book that you get, um, I don't know, inside, the word that was gonna come out of my mouth was sanitized, but it's, it's been reviewed so many times that the things you need to know, you need to know, um, I don't, uh, we're all, we're all constantly learning, and something I do say in the introduction is that, I don't want learning to be about shame.
I do think that shame sometimes propels people to take action, but not, uh, not sustainable action, probably like a one [00:35:00] time thing just to respond. It's more reactive. And part of, uh, why I wrote this book is, yes, maybe guilt and shame could be your introduction to this work, but how do you get to care about, you know, Us as a community and us as human beings, so that you can see us as your peers and colleagues in your workspaces, so that if we do show up and Tiffany can only type with one arm, you think, oh, we'll use speech to text, you know, if she needs to write, if she needs to write another book.
Um, and and so, so yeah, and I also think about. I don't know, I'm going off on a little bit of a tangent here. I think about, I think about this I would benefit from culture and essentially the reason why I'm like so excited of an I would benefit from culture is there are things that all of us will use to fill in the blank and ultimately what I think about is this, uh, is kind of this idea behind inclusive design [00:36:00] and inclusive design says That we are going to embrace multiple design variations so long as we have the desired outcome.
So Desired Outcome is a book. Uh, multiple design variations, and, and to me, inclusive design and accommodations kind of like, feel like the same thing. The multiple design variations are some people who like writing will type with two hands. I mean, some people handwrite their chapters and then transfer it over.
Into, uh, into a document. Tiffany, her multiple design very, her design variation is going to be that she's going to use speech to text, have transcripts that she then uses as her first draft so she can go through and edit those. Desired outcome? is a book. Uh, even with the book, if you want to read the book, uh, multiple design variations are print, audio, and ebook.
You know, again, you still get all of the information. It's just delivered to you in the, [00:37:00] in the, in the way that you would benefit from the most. I don't even remember what the question was.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: That's okay. That's okay. No, it's all important. I know that brings me to a little bit of the curb cut effect, but before we get there, I do, I wanted to make a note on, you know, you were talking about shame and like, shame, whether that contributes to change or not, and I think both are needed.
I think we really do need like, Whistleblowers and people who are willing to do that shame work. Um, because sometimes that, but I agree, but without the foundation of like, okay, great, you shamed me now. What do we do? Like that part is needed too. And usually that, that piece is done by people who aren't the ones doing the shaming.
Like, I feel like there's this much more grounded energy of like, Let's just, here's the, here's the game plan. Here's what we're doing about this. We're not shaming. We're just telling this is what needs to happen. But again, I just think like both are needed. Um, because [00:38:00] yeah, I think, um, sometimes companies, they just don't, they're not going to listen until they are forced to listen.
Tiffany Yu: Yeah, yeah, and I have a section in the book around like calling in and calling out and, uh, ways to do that. And I, and I do think about the ways that the disability community has come together and mobilized in a way that has created change, you know, um, and I'll, and I do share some of those examples in the book too.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Great. Um, yeah, so what we've kind of been talking about a little bit is the curb cut effect and, and maybe you can share a little bit about what that is and more thoughts you have about around it.
Tiffany Yu: Yeah, so the curb cut effect is the idea that when you design with disability in mind, you actually have an unintended benefit to a lot of other people.
So some examples, so the initial example of that was the curb cut. Where some wheelchair users who were living in the Bay Area out as an [00:39:00] act of defiance or as a radical act decided to cut, uh, cut a curb, uh, onto the sidewalk so that they could get their wheelchairs onto the sidewalk. And what they ended up doing was, uh, This act of defiance ended up benefiting so many other people that it became the standard, I think, as people design cities and sidewalks, is having that step free access.
So not only is it helpful for package delivery people who are, you know, wheeling around a cart, it's helpful for me, Tiffany, as I wheel around my carry on luggage, it's helpful for parents or anyone who is using a stroller. Thank you. Uh, to be able to, uh, even, although we may not recommend it, even for cyclists or people on scooters where maybe there isn't a bike lane, um, to be able to bike safe, safely, but maybe I shouldn't say that one out loud, but wear a helmet, I guess I'll say.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, yes, please. [00:40:00] Um, yeah, and like you said earlier, um, The more we do these things, then the more we feel safe and being seen. And so then we can be more out in the community. Um, whereas in the past, it was, we were very hidden. If you had a disability, it was, you were very hidden. Um, Yeah. And,
Tiffany Yu: and I guess I'll say too, I mean, there are other, other things like, Electric toothbrushes and audio books, and I learned that luggage didn't have wheels until airports became wheelchair accessible.
Right. And so, in some ways, I think about what you're saying and I and I say when we prioritize access. It means that we're invited into the space so that we can be visible. And at the same time, it makes it so that people who may not feel as open about sharing, and they don't have to, about sharing things related to their disability, don't have to.
Because they can show up to the space and not have to [00:41:00] ask or advocate for access. Which ultimately ends up becoming exhausting for, for a lot of people too.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: That's right. We talk a lot about that on this show. It's been a while, though, actually, since I've talked about it, where that self care that self self advocacy, like, we talk a lot of our work as therapists is helping clients learn how to self advocate.
But the reality is self advocacy does take a lot of. effort and energy. And yeah, if the world was more accessible, we, you wouldn't have to have that fight on a daily basis with your workplace, with your, even with your doctors, with all. So I am curious, you know, we've, you, we've come so far since the initial ADA laws, but what do you still see needs to happen in our society to make it feel like it's just a completely accessible place?
Tiffany Yu: Yeah. You know, something, something I've been thinking a lot about is the way that bias and discrimination and prejudice shows up uniquely in the disability [00:42:00] community compared to, uh, other forms of, of discrimination? Um, other, or other forms, or the way ableism shows up uniquely compared to other forms of oppression.
And in some ways it's kind of like under the guise of kindness. So it says, I'll help you, but I won't hire you. It says, I see you, but in an infantilized, desexualized, less than kind of way, um, where, I'll help you and I'll feel great, uh, but I, I, I don't know if I am I don't know if I, or maybe I'm making assumptions about whether you can work or participate in other, other activities.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Making decisions for you rather than with you, yeah.
Tiffany Yu: Yes, uh, and I do have a chapter, it used to be called Advocate With Us, Not For Us. Um, but it does make me think about how so much of, so much of disability initiatives for a long time were all seen as non profits, even if [00:43:00] they, you know, Even if their counterparts, uh, or, and or their products could definitely be a for, a for profit entity.
But, I think what needs to happen, so, The Americans with Disabilities Act was passed in 1990. Um, the only way it's really enforced is through legal action, which makes people view us as a community more as a liability. And privilege essentially says it's easier for me to opt out rather than show up and be willing to get things wrong.
But I do also think what needs to catch up is what I call, like, the attitudes or perceptions or hearts and minds around disability. Because you can put as many policies in place as you want, uh, and maybe that's where it starts. But if you really do not fundamentally believe that disabled people are valuable and worthy just because we exist, um, then those policies are not going to be implemented.
And, and I actually think [00:44:00] that's what we're still having 30 plus years after the ADA, right? Because with the ADA, why would our unemployment numbers be twice that of our non disabled peers still? If the ADA is supposed to protect us in spaces like employment, right? So there's some missing puzzle piece.
Which is actually why, and you may love this, or you may not like it, But I saw this Instagram post a couple of years ago, and it said ending discrimination starts with self reflection. So, every chapter of the book is pretty digestible, it averages around 7 8 pages, and at the end of every chapter there are reflection questions.
Because I could, I could have written a book that was only chapter 34, which is get civically engaged to talk about all of the different systems and policies that need to be changed. But if you don't start with chapter one, which is disability is not a bad word with getting on board that disability isn't this bad thing.
[00:45:00] Again, There are so many of us who live with bodies and or minds that operate differently, right? So maybe the problem is our external environment rather than this human condition that so many of us have. Um, and maybe this is my own stubbornness that I refuse to believe that a billion of us are bad or broken or needs to be fixed.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, I agree. It's, Again, we need both where, um, there, I do think, unfortunately, I think you're right. There's this under to end an unintended consequence of policy and shame where you make somebody to do to do something just because you've made them do it, but there's no change of heart. And that's how we, we still have the problems that we're having that, again, I think that The policies are needed in a lot of ways.
Um, and then also the change of heart has to happen. So that's where these, that's where your book comes in. That's where, yeah,
Tiffany Yu: that's where the community comes in. And, you know, uh, so the book came out a couple of weeks ago, [00:46:00] it's bright orange, it's a orange gradient cover. Perfect for fall, but I ran into a couple of my disabled friends who were speaking on a panel at an event a couple of weeks ago, and I was going around and having them take photos with the book, and we were all laughing, and there was another person who was sitting right next to me, and I saw that she had pulled up the Amazon page for the book and, uh, and bought a copy.
And she then shared, she was like, you all look like you were having so much fun, and she shared that she had a child who had a disability, and, and I will say, I think for parents, uh, they may be in survival mode for those early years, I, I want to have compassion and grace for that. And then she said, I hope that my kid sees all of you in community with each other, laughing, having a great time.
And I do think, again, I guess coming back to community, that's why it's so important. It's so important to me because I think the powers that be, whoever they are, capitalism, supremacy, [00:47:00] uh, uh, um, the powers that be In some ways, isolation is how they remain in power. Um, but again, you know, you said the shame, if it was just one person going out with a tweet, it probably isn't going to mean that much.
But if it comes in a higher volume, if you can get, you know, if you can mobilize your community around something, then, then that may create that first spark of change. And then hopefully that will encourage that person to maybe. Want to come hang out with us. Maybe come join us in taking the photos, uh, get to know our community because I actually do think that, you know, I think about all of the different networks I have who have been supporting this book.
Some of them may not have thought that they wanted to show up for the disability community. But I worked with them 15 years ago, or I went to college with them 20 years ago. And actually I had someone who came to my book talk, we did a theater program 20 years ago when I was in high school, uh, who came to my book talk [00:48:00] because, and I wonder if this is why, you know, diversability is, is a community, but I'm also part of so many other communities.
I wonder if I unintentionally, strategically had all of these communities. Because once you care about me, you care about the things that I care about, and then you want to show up for the things that are important to me, right? And I do talk about, in the book, about how intimacy to me creates some of the best allies.
Um, Maybe it starts with just that one person, but then you get to know our friends, or you get to see, you help, you start to amplify the things, um, and you have access to spaces that I may not ever have access to, so then you say, oh, but, You know, and, and you know, we say once you've met one disabled person, you've met one disabled person.
And sometimes I know people say like, um, I don't know, I, I will often, I was thinking about posting on threads about this, and I was like, the three responses that I usually get when people see my wrist splint, [00:49:00] number one, they will say, oh my gosh, what happened? Uh, number two, they will say, uh, that one time I also broke my wrist
Um, and I forget what number three is, but. It creates that level of intimacy where then you can go into spaces and say, Hey, I, I know Tiffany, you know, I'm hoping I have more friends who have other identities other than my own, you know, getting out of my echo chamber. But, uh, maybe she or someone from her community would be helpful to help lead this conversation about how we can better show up.
Um, and at the same time, I know I talked about hearts and minds. I come from, uh, I come from financial services where we want everything backed by data. And the book also highlights, yes, there's a business case as well. Yes, there's a 13 trillion global disability market that you can have access to if you make your products more accessible for, for our community.[00:50:00]
And, um, And yeah, I, again, I forget what the question was Friday
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: thing. No, it doesn't even matter. This is perfect. It's great. Um, yes, I agree. It was, uh, this is totally like a side note, but as you were talking about, somebody might relate like their broken wrist to your wrist. Um, a lot of, uh, people that I talk to or even read online, like actually get really pissed off when somebody is kind of comparing, I'm curious.
But you, you kind of spun it in a positive light in a way that if we can now talk about it. Is that what you were? Getting at or,
Tiffany Yu: you know, in some ways, so I was thinking about that threads post and someone comparing my paralyzed arm to their broken wrist, um, more so as a joke, but then I thought about like the level, uh, how it could create some level of intimacy.
I mean, I think ultimately, I will acknowledge, um, in the early years of [00:51:00] diversability, we used to, um, we used to host these like empathy Disability built empathy building lunches where we would simulate different disabilities. Um, so we would put a blindfold on someone or tie, tie their wrists behind their back or, um, or give someone like over the ear, uh, noise canceling headphones.
And what I want to highlight, even with the broken wrist example, is that if you acquire a disability, even if it's temporary, um, you will experience the stages of grief. But I think what people forget is that the final two stages of grief, even if you do believe that grief is non linear, I feel like I still will dip into my disability grief.
But there are two stages that are meaning and acceptance, or acceptance and meaning. And I have found those, but in a 45 minute exercise, you are only going to feel the immediacy of the loss of, [00:52:00] uh, joy. Of, um, of what, of whatever, whatever disability we're trying to simulate. And so at the same time, I tell people that it's okay if you can't put yourself in my shoes.
I think you can even just say it out loud and say, I don't know what that's like, I don't know what it's like, uh, but, but I want to better understand how I can show it better for you. So, I don't know. I will say with the broken wrist thing, I, I did start to catch myself that I was like, I, like, it comes up so frequently and it's been interesting because And this is mainly with, like, people I've dated who have, have not, have not dated someone who has an apparent disability, but literally the number of times I have people make comments about my wrist splint, uh, it starts to make them more aware of how frequently I have to tell people about it.
Whether I want to or not, and this [00:53:00] is, and this is as someone who, you know, doesn't have the most, it's not super apparent if you're not staring at someone's hands. Um, but it starts to make them more aware of how frequently I get those questions and have to answer random questions. And I can also choose not to if I don't want to, but, um, I think that's what I was trying to get across with, with sharing, sharing that example is like, now that they have witnessed to a little bit of my experiences, maybe they can bring those into spaces that I don't have access to.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Um, and, and the other thing that comes up for me around that is just, Um, when you are trying to figure out, instead of it being like, yeah, you have no idea what this is like, which is true, um, to the person without the disability, it's, it's, It's more of like, yo, can, would you allow me to share more with you about what my experience has been like?
Tiffany Yu: Yeah. I love that. Um, and, and I, and I [00:54:00] will say like, I get, I think it's just again, creating that level of intimacy where you can have that open, those open conversations. And I do think about community building too. I mean, I think about it a lot. Uh, and. Again, desired outcome, community, multiple design variations.
So I'm the type of person who, um, and actually it's been, I don't know if it's become a joke to anyone, but I feel like I, so I'm, I made a lot of friends, uh, a lot of disabled friends online and I am, I self identify as awkward when I am in person, and sometimes when I meet people who are now my friends, who I've now developed a relationship with, the first time I have, I meet them, sometimes we still joke about it, I'll go and introduce myself and then I'll run away.
Um, but part of it is, I think it was my own, and I don't know if it was a trauma response, around being a burden on someone's [00:55:00] time. Um, and so, uh, I very much value, you know, uh, if I do have friends reach out and, and, like, I live by my schedule, like, they will schedule, like, time with me because, because they know, right?
And so, I, I think about the different ways that you can create connection or create community, too. And for some people, maybe, yes, it's okay. Maybe you're super awkward like me and you see someone in person, um, but hopefully, I, I don't know, I have to trust that I will have multiple touchpoints with, with these people over time.
But I will say, uh, I have had, uh, uh, more than one occurrence where I have introduced myself to someone where we have built a relationship online and then have, you know, Run away. Um,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: it's, yeah. Would you label it social anxiety at all or just, just feeling awkward?
Tiffany Yu: Yeah, you know, I mean, and I'm someone who [00:56:00] does experience anxiety, but in some ways that doesn't, it doesn't feel like social anxiety. I mean, more often than not, like, the person that I'm saying hi to was like speaking at an event, which is why I go say hi quickly, and then I And you're scared
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: of taking up too much time.
Yeah, because
Tiffany Yu: then there's like a line. I mean, I even think about, it's It's something I think about as I'm doing book signings, because people are coming and they're, uh, they're sharing things with me, and, and sometimes they have more things they want to share, and, and in some ways there's the rational side of my brain, which is like, if people really want their book signed, they'll wait, and then there's the other side of my brain that's like, oh gosh, like, Are people going to leave the line because they're waiting too long and, you know, so, uh, maybe, I mean, it's anxiety.
I don't know if it would be social anxiety, but honestly, I think, I think it's just chronic overthinking. Yeah,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: yeah, no, I get that. I get that. Um, [00:57:00] and we are, I know we are running up on time here, but that does make me think so much about like, Oh, that, there's a lot to, there's a lot to talk about there around what we prioritize, how we prioritize it, what we think we deserve, what we think should be, like, there, I just feel like there's a lot there that maybe we can save for another episode.
Um, yeah. I mean,
Tiffany Yu: it brings up something that was, like, I, I noticed, and actually, uh, someone I, someone I dated brought this up to me, where I'd like go, we'd go to a friend's birthday party, and, I'd go and say hi to my friend whose birthday party it was, and then I'd say, oh, like, I'm sure so many other people want to wish you a happy birthday, so, you know, we'll be around, but I just wanted to say hi.
And afterward, my partner was like, oh, like, I wanted to stay and, like, simmer in the conversation, and he was the type of person who would literally, I don't know, would let, like, [00:58:00] really long pauses go by and would just be there, where something in me was like, Oh, like this. I guess it was my own version of situational awareness.
My awareness of the situation is there are going to be a lot of people coming to this event who the only person they know is this person whose birthday it is. I know I will have more spacious time with them outside of an environment like this. So, yeah. You really got me thinking about social situation, social situation.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: That's, that's really what I talk about most on this podcast. Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think it can be sensory stuff. I think it can be self worth stuff sometimes. I think it can be like, it can be so different for everyone. Um, there really is no one, one size fits all there. So,
Tiffany Yu: yeah. And I, and I I, I will say my own, you know, it, it still hasn't landed with me that I have a book out in the world with my name on it [00:59:00] in giant letters.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. And
Tiffany Yu: at the end of the day, in some ways, I'm still the woman who says hi and runs away and who hoards fruit snacks and, and it's like, can all of these things exist at the same time? Right? Well, they do. So they can,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I appreciate you so much, Tiffany. Thank you for sharing everything you shared today.
And I hope people buy your book and continue to learn for themselves and then make change in the world.
Tiffany Yu: I appreciate
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: it. Thanks for having me on.
Tiffany Yu: All right. Thank you so much.
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Listen to Tiffany’s interview with me, Destiny, on Episode 71 of The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast.
Tiffany Yu is the CEO & Founder of Diversability, a 3x TEDx speaker, and the author of The Anti-Ableist Manifesto: Smashing Stereotypes, Forging Change, and Building a Disability-Inclusive World. She started her career at Goldman Sachs before becoming a speaker and writer on disability. At the age of 9, Tiffany became disabled as a result of a car accident that also took the life of her father. Learn more about Tiffany’s work here.
Meet Destiny - The host of The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast and a licensed mental health therapist in the states of Georgia and Florida. Destiny offers traditional 50-minute therapy sessions as well as therapy intensives and monthly online workshops for the chronic illness community.
Destiny Davis, LPC CRC, is solely responsible for the content of this document. The views expressed herein may or may not necessarily reflect the opinions of Tiffany Wu.