Ep 42: Harnessing the Power of Art Therapy and Music in Healing with Meg Bearman MA, LPC-MHSP

• Episode Transcript

  This is a rough transcript created with Artificial Intelligence (AI) technology. Any mispellings and sentence errors are a result of imperfect AI.

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   Well thank you Meg for being here. I am really, really excited about this interview. Um, why don't you tell us a little bit about where you practice, how you practice, and anything

  else that feels important.

  Totally. So my name is Meg Beerman. I am a therapist and art therapist. I guess, I say, I guess psychotherapist and art therapist in Nashville, Tennessee. I own my own private practice in East Nashville and I work with adults 18 and above. I consider, I always say like, I consider myself just a regular talk therapist, but my background is in art therapy, which I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about.

  So how I sort of. Incorporate art therapy into my practice is as much or as little as my clients are open and wanting to use it. We kind of just weave it in as much as it's helpful because I work in Nashville. My practice is in Nashville. I get I work with a ton of creatives and musicians. And so sometimes people seek me out for that art therapy piece.

  Some people don't even know that I do it. Um, so I love that. I kind of get to lean into both sides of that. Um, and when I moved down south, you Cause I went to grad school up North where art therapy is a little more prevalent and people sort of know what art therapy is. When I moved down South, I started to lean more into just a regular therapist that also uses art therapy, just cause a lot of people don't really know exactly what it is.

  So I specialize in trauma, which is super relative. And that's the majority of the work that I do. Yeah. Anxiety and depression, because we typically see those as the biggest responses from anyone that has experienced trauma. I do a lot of grief work and then, uh, like relationship communication issues. I see families and couples, um, and then everybody gets self growth, getting to know themselves better, just sort of the intrinsic things that Entering the therapy process will allow you to do and then I'm pretty open about like two things that I don't specialize in would be substance use and eating disorders.

  I do take on clients, depending where they are in recovery, but I'm like part of their plan. And then we kind of bring in more supports for them.

  That makes perfect sense. Yeah, I am. The same way, exactly the same way. Um, yeah. So when, what modality do you

  use? So I would say in terms of, well, like I technically, because of my art therapy background, I'm like an expressive therapist.

  So I use. Kind of different modalities, but if anything, I'd say, like, theoretical orientation and modality, I really lean into psychodynamic. Like, I want to learn a lot about your past to see where we are in the present to really start to see what shifts and changes we want to make in the future. But I will say, yeah, I will say like, I I'm, I'm pretty hardcore psychodynamic.

  I can, you know, I do bring in a little bit of CBT work or depending on each client, what is helpful for them, but that's probably what I feel most comfortable using. And then again, with art therapy, it is a very expressive modality. So it kind of allows you to dabble a little bit in each using different sort of art therapy interventions, depending on what's helpful for each client.

  Yeah. And then you have a podcast geared towards music. In therapy, which I called music therapy when I reached out to you, which is I guess really

  a thing. I really appreciate you, Destiny. When you had sent me that email and used the term music therapist, so, or music therapy, it was very helpful for me because it allowed me to kind of take a second to really distinguish.

  And as an art therapist, I know what it feels like to kind of be looped in or to be, um, you know, viewed as an artist, but what's an art therapist, but like, what are the boundaries around that title? So I am not a music therapist. My podcast is called mind of a song and it is. all about the intersection of musicianship and, um, resilience and therapy.

  So essentially we bring on one artist, uh, musical artists to perform one song and that song is the impetus or sort of a, a musical version of. that reflects a mental health experience. So that's the framework of the podcast. I have worked with so many amazing, um, music therapists in different points of my career and their work is so unbelievable.

  So, um, interesting. And it, the podcast is not about like that muse. I'm not a music therapist, sort of processing the song. Um, it's really about creating a version of our conversation. Encapsuled in like a musical, um, kind of artistic way. It kind of came into fruition because I work with so many musicians in Nashville and artists that I would be working with a client for a while and they would come in one day and we would talk a lot about the music that they're making.

  And at certain points they would come in and be like. Oh, I wrote the song. I wanted to share it with you. And they would play it for me in session. And it would reflect all this therapeutic work that we've been doing. And it was so cool to see what their musical version of the therapeutic work that we had done was when I was thinking about, um, doing a podcast and what kind of podcast I want to have.

  I was like, this would be really cool to share, or like, I feel so privileged that I get to experience that all the time. It would be really cool to share that with. People in the world. So that's kind of how it started. And the artists that I bring on, they're not my clients, but very similar to sort of those, you know, therapeutic experiences that I get with, with artists bringing me their work.

  I'm always blown away by like the songs that they play me or want to share with me. I never asked for it, but they tend to want to give me this. Musical interpretation in a perfect world, I would love to have artists, you know, share a piece of artwork that then is the impetus for, you know, mental health experiences.

  And that would lean more of the art therapy piece, but because it's a podcast, I don't have that visual. So that makes sense. Well, I

  think there's just something so beautiful and healing about music that, you know, as you're talking about it, like. I just, it's a, it's a somatic experience, but I kind of feel, you know, you talked about like this encapsulation and I can just feel myself kind of surrounded by like melody and comfort and warmth while you're discussing really traumatic things and, um, exploring kind of hardships.

  It kind of gives you this, you know, so in somatic experiencing, we talk a lot about resourcing and it's just something that you. have access to that helps to keep you grounded while you're simultaneously thinking about something really hard so that you don't go into a tailspin and maybe panic or feel utterly like in despair.

  And so music, yeah, it wouldn't be a resource for everyone, but If you lean towards art and, and, uh, and making music, then I would imagine, yeah, the, and I would imagine there's many different pieces that would be a resource for you, whether it's the instrument itself or certain tunes, like certain melodies, certain notes.

  Or maybe it's the environment that you're playing in, like just being on stage or being in a room with friends or being alone in your room, like all of those different aspects would then be a resource for someone, depending on what their personal likes and dislikes and values and preferences are.

  100 percent Yeah, I like I feel like the art I've learned so much from like the artist and I also you know, at certain points, especially with art making like I'll put on music or kind of ask the client if there's something that they want to listen to while we make.

  So when you talk about creating that perfect kind of grounding climate where we're bringing up things that are quite dysregulating and bringing in those tools that are very regulating music is such a great way in a, you know, Contained and controlled and, um, you know, discussed and like presenting that in that way.

  It can be really, really helpful. I think for my clients and I, I am also trained in brain spotting and I was very much, um, specifically chose brain spotting over EMDR because of the musical component. I don't know how familiar you are. If you're.

  I know of brain spotting, but can you tell me, I did not know there was a musical component to

  it.

  Yeah. So I'm, and I, I'm trained in brain spotting one. I think there's four different levels and they're not in order. Like you can take three and then one and four and two. Um, but essentially it is. Listening, there's like a specific album that you listen to or music that you listen to. It kind of sounds like some of it's like nature sounds and it's just supposed to be like a very small, um, kind of quiet noise, almost like elevator music.

  But when you brain spot, it is incredible. Like the idea is that doing it while you listen to music is very grounding and helps with that kind of right side of the brain with self regulation. Um, so when I was thinking about. Kind of being trained in something, whether EMDR or brain spotting, I very much leaned into brain spotting because I was so familiar with how helpful music can be in terms of grounding my clients.

  I love that. It makes me think of, I immediately went to ADHD and how we often need a lot of external or not a lot of, but an external thing to focus on. Uh, so that I said that wrong, but you need some kind of external noise so that you can focus on what's in front of you. Otherwise you just like ping pong all over the place.

  And. I have a lot of thoughts about that kind of how pre and industrial revolution when you lived in nature kind of lived in a more like communal environment there was naturally all of these things around you. Naturally you were hearing birds every day and hearing the kind of environmental noises that were natural to the world.

  Um, and. Yeah, I guess I'm going on a tangent here, but it just feels like this is a good way to recreate that in a world that no longer values kind of being outside being in community. Like, you know, everything is so isolated these days and you go home and you clean your own house and you feed your own family and then you go to work and you come back home.

  And yeah,

  totally. Yes. No, I, I totally agree.

  Yeah. Um, so, yeah. But, and I wanted to make this, I forgot to say this earlier, but so you don't specialize in chronic illness and typically the therapists that are on this show are chronic illness specialists. But the reason why I wanted to have you on is because.

  Again, in somatic experiencing, we just talk a lot about resourcing and, you know, when it comes to like art therapy, music, expressive therapies, it can be so foreign to me. I know it was foreign to me at one point and it took a long, long time to even write, like get comfortable with the idea of trying to move my body or, um, anything that was outside of my brain did not feel safe.

  Like the intellectual cognitive kind of work. Um, and I just. I think it's important to expose these tools more and more, um, rather than just like, here's which I absolutely hate, but like, here's how to think differently. And, um, you know, just focus on you. And it's like, well, no, actually focus on let's like, bring some of our external world in a little bit and use that as resource to connect with ourselves and with other people.

  So. I'm curious. Can you talk a little bit more about music, the music component, even art therapy, you can bring either one in and some of the tools that you use, but maybe talk a little bit more about the process with it and how that then helps clients, whether it's feeling grounded or like navigating something else, mental

  health wise.

  Totally. So I'll focus more on the art therapy, if that's okay, just because the music piece again, it's really just the kind of, um, contained to the podcast piece. But I, again, I do work with a lot of musicians. And as I said before, in many ways, I say, like, So our biggest probably misconception a little bit of art therapy or sort of using art as a tool in therapy is you don't have to be good at it.

  So, like, so many people, like, as you say, sort of, let's think about all these different resources or things that we can try. And I think even if you just think about for a 2nd, like, How hard it can be sometimes to get our clients to just try something new, right? Like if we can just get them to try something new and get their body used to what that feels like and have a mild or content or neutral experience, trying something new that can really open them up to so many different new ways of thinking, new ways of being new ways of connecting.

  So biggest misconception is that art therapy is like, you have to be a good artist, or you even have to like like art to do it, which is not true in art therapy because art therapy is so different than like, You know, an instructional art class, or if you've been to one of those like paints and sips where you, you know, someone shows you how to do something art therapy is different, mainly because, again, you don't have to be good at it.

  You just have to have an open mind. So if you're willing to try. And what's interesting is some people, usually musicians or people who are more art inclined are definitely more comfortable engaging in the art therapy process. But I love when I get clients that We'll say, oh, no, I'm not like, I'm not good at art.

  Like, I'm not a good artist. I don't like it. It's actually those clients that I really, um, if they're open to it, want them to try. Um, so that's always really interesting to me. So I will say, like, a great example of that is when working with anxiety. Some of my, um, highly anxious clients, the idea of, again, trying something new.

  Is very frightening and they're usually not interested. Um, but if I can get them, you know, art therapy is a great way, a safe way to try something new. So, um, pushing them out of their comfort zone and allowing them to, like, kind of, we say the process is just as important as the product. So, typically, if I get a client who, again, for, like, for example, with, like, anxiety, if I can get them to try something new, or if they're resistant to it.

  Chances are, they're probably resistant in the outside world to trying new things as well. And that can be a whole session in and of itself. Like what's coming up for you. I'm like, kind of asking you to do this thing that you've never done before. You know, what is it like in the outside, in the real world, when someone asks you to do something that you've never done before?

  Do you freeze? Do you, you know, do you get defensive? Do you lean into it? What is it like? Um, and then when we're actually doing the work. So, uh, another big element of art therapy as well is, um, I'm like specifically trained in what mode DAT, like what medium to use. with each client, which is really, really important.

  So typically for my more anxious clients, especially if they're trying art therapy for the first time, we use more restrictive materials. So like colored pencils, um, crayons, pen, anything that doesn't like not watercolor, not, um, paint, nothing that's going to be hard for them to control. So seeing that, so, so maybe like the long term goal would be to kind of use watercolor or more of these, um, Uh, that's what I'm looking for.

  More of these, um, clay or like something molded up like bendable. Yes. Um, what's the word? Opposite of restrictive. Um, fluid. Yes. Thank you. More fluid materials. So that's another huge component of being an art. Therapist is you're trained in all these modalities and knowing which ones to use. So with that said, yes, with anxious clients, we usually start off with like way more restrictive because those are going to feel a lot safer and it's going to be a lot more controlled and easier for them to use.

  And then maybe like more long term work that we do is what would it, what would it be like to experiment with watercolor and what would it feel like, you know, water color, it's very hard to control. So it's a great way to sort of talk about like going with the flow and again, getting them out of their comfort zone.

  So the beauty of being an art therapist that you have all these different. Modalities to choose from and back to sort of like the process is just as important as the product. The product is important in the sense like we say, like, I am not Miss Cleo, which means I'm not looking. The artwork is in this moment what it means to the client.

  And it's really just a space for us to be very curious about. The things that they included, even curious about the things that maybe they didn't include. But for some clients, yeah, that like the grounding work is really in the process. So that's really, really interesting to see how different clients of mine sort of engage in their process with different, um, you know, so also there's two components of art therapy where we say one is.

  Something that's more structured where we use interventions. So interventions are going to be like specific prompts or giving them guidelines in their work. And then the other side is just working more spontaneous. So sometimes what that looks like is if I'm working with a client, a lot of times if they're like describing something that's really heavily like an image or like a dream or something very, um, something that you could potentially draw.

  Spontaneously we'll say, well, I wonder what it would be like. Could you draw that for me? What would it, and then asking them what, what kind of paper do you want to use? What pens, pencils, you know, art, um, Cray pods or color pastels, and then letting them kind of guide. So we sort of split it up. It depends.

  You work very much in the moment and just depends on like each client, what they're working with and what's helpful for them.

  I really love the explanation around like using more rigid materials when it's someone who's more anxious and actually needs to be in control, which is a perfect kind of analogy for meeting a client where they're at, which is what we do.

  And so many times clients come in right and they're just expecting change, which, of course, right, we want to change but. Um, I think that that change can, there's a desire for it to go really, really quickly, but when we do that, and this is all, you can tell me what this is like in the art therapy world, but from a somatic experiencing perspective, when we try to go too far, too fast, that in and of itself causes trauma.

  That, that is what a trauma response is. It's when your nervous system has been overwhelmed by something that happened too much. Too soon too fast. And so we, a lot of times can kind of just retraumatize ourselves by trying to get to this finish line. And so we want to meet clients where they're at, which is, you know, a lot of people will kind of feel like, uh, thinking now more, a little bit more like child rearing.

  Um, people think like you're condoning bad behavior. If you like condone someone's anxiety or the way that they present when they're anxious. And it's like, No, that's, that's not what this is. We, we meet people where they're at so that we can hold their hand and walk them across the threshold into something new.

  But when you just tell somebody like, no, don't be that way, be some something different. It's inherently traumatic.

  Totally. I always offer, I tell my clients, I'm like, my job is to. Push you when I feel like you're not being pushed enough and just as important and just as equally reign you in when I feel like we need to really, really pull back and the beauty of art therapy is.

  There's so many opportunities for containers. So like when I have a client that is drawing something and it starts to have a trauma response or I notice certain ways in which they're reacting to the artwork or ways in which they're some, a lot of times that they don't even realize in terms of how their body's responding.

  The beauty is like I always offer. It's like, if this feels like too much, or maybe it's, you know, we can put this on pause and we can fold it up, put it away. Everyone has their own folder their own container. And also the artwork is there. So if they want to rip it up and burn it in a trash can, great. So I feel like art therapy really, when, when we want to put something on pause or create, you know, if it's something that is more challenging, more traumatic, more disturbing, we can create like an actual container to put it in and create a safe place for it.

  And I feel like there's a lot of opportunities there to help people. Utilize like containers as like a metaphor for learning how to contain the trauma. So like, obviously the goal is always to work towards, you know, you controlling it versus it controlling you. And I think the physical way in which we get the body engaged in creating a container for it, or folding it up or placing it in a drawer, shutting it closed helps their body rewire to understand, lean into like part of the ways in which they control the response.

  Yeah. And this is so relevant to people with chronic illness because you talked earlier about like, um, going out into the world and, and kind of re recreating the same thing that you might have seen in session with like starting to feel fearful or anxious or upset if, you know, the artwork isn't kind of, kind of coming out how they wanted it to, but when we live with a chronic illness, we're constantly in fear of our body because it's painful and we don't really know.

  If it's going to progress, you know, this symptom that I have, is it going to be 10 times worse tomorrow, or is it, does it just stay here and then go away? And so we work a lot on acceptance, but that means constantly being, um, exposed to fear. And I, I love this idea of bringing art work, art therapy into this work with clients, because again, this is a, it's a tricky conversation.

  Because there's so much you can't control about your body and you don't we don't know like we don't know if If it's going to, if we're going to have a flare up, that's going to last two weeks or a month or two hours. Um, and yet still we have to figure out a way to live our lives in the most meaningful way possible.

  Um, yeah. Do you have any thoughts about that specifically?

  Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm also curious and sort of put it back on you as like, yes, like I, I I'm a little bit curious in terms of like, I imagine like every day you're pulling on like different tools that you can use to just kind of make it through the day.

  Absolutely. What are some examples? I'm just kind of curious. And do you ever use? So the like golden rule, I guess we always say is like, it is only art therapy when an art therapist is present. However, art intrinsically for everyone in this world is. Something that brings joy, something that is calming, self regulating, engaging in the art process independently is really, really helpful.

  So I'm curious, do you ever use any kind of like art with your clients or is art ever a tool in terms of that somatic piece or just from the grounding, calming, even like journaling or documenting kind of way?

  Yeah, so only recently did I just start bringing elements in after, in all honesty, my own therapist started working on it with me, um, which I think is how a lot of us do learn.

  Um, and so, and I do, I went to an art therapy kind of workshop years ago, and I remember. Hearing that like you really can't do like art therapy unless you have been trained as an art therapist, but you can kind of pull elements in so I'm still kind of dabbling with like what that looks like and making sure I'm doing it safely and ethically and all of that.

  Um, so I kind of. Yeah. As of right now, um, I'm, I'm just dabbling in it. I would love to kind of bring more of it in because it really does help my clients get out of their head. And so when I am using it, that's what I'm using it for. I'm not trying to do kind of, you know, an art therapy kind of like session.

  I'm really just, okay, here's another tool to help you get out of your head. Um, and as soon as that's accomplished, Then we might start talking again. We might start doing some somatic work again. We kind of veer in. So that's how I use it. And then as far as like, do you have any thoughts about that?

  Well, I'm just, I'm sort of, I I'm curious too.

  So sometimes in my work as well, I'll do like guided meditation together. And at the very end, I have them draw some component of something that some vision or some sort of. Yeah. Like that they had during the guided meditation. And so they can draw just one scene, one part, one piece of it. And I really liked doing that kind of work because it's so, it just, the way in which they're able to kind of slow down the deep breathing, the relaxation, closing their eyes, and then bringing in that art component at the end is a way in which I just, again, kind of, I'm not somatically sort of like working with the body a little bit in the sense of like allowing them to close their eyes, connect and use breath work, and then we sort of like bring in the art component at the very end.

  I love that because a lot of times within so within somatic work, there is a lot of visualization that happens as well. And, you know, it can be really easy to kind of leave a session and then just move on with life and forget about it until your next session. And so having a piece of art that you can carry with you.

  It just sounds like such a beautiful resource to kind of have you can put it on your fridge. You can put it on your wall. You can put it in your car and to remember that. So within se the way that I would explain this to a client. It's like when you see that photo, I mean, that picture that you drew, it's not about the picture.

  It's about the feeling and the sensation that you had while you were drawing it. Um, and so that's the resource, like eventually you won't need to look at that picture to feel that. But if right now that's the only way you can connect to it, then let's do that.

  Totally. And in art therapy too, we use a lot of sort of creating like transitional objects.

  So, you know, a lot of times I share with clients, I only see you I'm with you, you know, 50 minutes a week. So the other six days and 23 hours that I'm not with you, sometimes it can be helpful to create, um, we call them like grounding stones is. Goodbye. Like an example. Um, so you essentially like have them paint a stone and you can use text, words, pictures, like whatever, whatever that is, but basically creating a stone that's specifically made for grounding work.

  So when they feel anxious, they feel nervous, they feel sad, whatever kind of emotions that we're attaching to it, creating this kind of stone, something they can hold something, they can feel something they can like toss between their fingers, sort of creating a really, um, Like tangible kind of connecting to the body and the stone that it represents.

  That's a great example of something that's been really helpful for some of my clients in terms of connecting to something and help self regulating outside of art therapy. Another one that I've done too, that's cool is They're these little, you can buy them at like Michael's, they're these little glass beads.

  I think they're kind of like small glass stones. It's like flat on the bottom and people put them in vases for flowers for like decoration. Um, we will pick like eight words that from a magazine and glue the word underneath the stone. So when you look at the stone, it like kind of blows up the word and we'll make a little satchel and put all the stones in the satchel and it'll be 5, 6, 8, 10 sort of positive affirmations or just work, you know, little words that can really help again outside the therapy space be words of encouragement.

  Uh, sometimes it's like just breathe, reminding them things that they can do to self regulate. So there's infinite ways that we can, yeah, transitional objects can be super helpful outside the therapy space to help with grounding work.

  You know, it's so interesting and I'm, I'm going to share this because my hope is that if there's clients listening that if they have the same experience, this will feel helpful.

  But when I first started kind of a lot of like, personal development work, I guess, mental health therapy, I used to watch a lot of like YouTube videos and like different people talking about this stuff and anything that felt like it was trying to change my mind, or it was trying to bring in a positive experience to me.

  in my body, in my mind, it felt inherently invalidating. And the more and more that I You know, my experiences in life, like continuing to do the work and having new friends and new, uh, relational experiences and my partner who it's a very secure attachment style, which is very different, um, you know, mirror mirroring like him and, and having the, those experiences in my life, all of these things that we're talking about now feel like.

  So comforting and such an added like benefit to my life. And I'm just curious if you've ever worked with anyone or kind of had this experience with yourself or anyone in your life, some kind of example where you can kind of think of where there was so much resistance. Um, and then how you kind of navigated, and I can speak to this too more since I, I do personally have this experience, but kind of curious your thoughts on that.

  Ooh, let me think. Um, well, like personally, I feel like I'm so lucky to come from a family and feel so privileged where just mental health, seeing a therapist, it's, it's not, it is only seen as something that's like helpful, only going to help you supportive, um, no shame attached to it. No, you know. Any, yeah, no, no kind of shaming.

  Thank that. So personally, I feel like I always view therapy or like, uh, um, even like next week I'm doing like a, like a women's day kind of weekend cold plunge thing. I always see it as like an opportunity to. Learn something new about myself. And I think at this point in my life too, I'm like, I want to, someone show me something that I don't know.

  Like someone show me something, you know, I, I don't know if this resonates, but like, I think as a therapist, I hold a lot for other people and I have learned, especially in the last five years, that it's really important for me to have my own therapist that I feel like holds me to do different therapy things that are super out of my comfort zone so that I'm always sort of.

  Pushing my, you know, limits. And I want like someone to show me something new. Cause I think sometimes in my practice, I'm so used to having your comfort zone and the things that you're used to working with is so beneficial and so helpful, but when you're, when that's kind of your specialty, the only downside to that is.

  It's your specialty and you really stay in that comfort zone. And I always say like, nothing really grows there, which isn't technically true because I'm always doing continue education and learning, bringing in more stuff to it, but I'm trying to think of, I feel like I definitely have had clients. That have never been in therapy before.

  And I really enjoy working with those clients because I feel so confident that engaging in the therapy process and the work that we're going to do together is only going to change them in a positive way. Um, I get excited a little bit around that, any kind of resistance or like the unknown, it makes me a little bit excited because I, I sort of sit at like, Oh, like you just wait, like you're really going to be, you know, really good at this.

  And it's going to be something that will change your life. I have people all the time ask, like, do I think kind of goes back? Like, it's like, does everyone need to be in therapy? Do I think that? And I'm like, no, I don't think that, but I can't, I it's hard for me to imagine a world where giving yourself an hour every week to just focus on you.

  And talk about yourself and the things that you're struggling with or the things that you're, you know, thriving with, how could that not benefit you? So I get kind of with the resistance a little bit, and I've always found that when, when we kind of meet them where they're at and like when done in the right way and with the right pace, they're pretty open to it.

  And I think one of the things that I value the most are all like. The therapeutic relationship that I have with my clients and them, them trusting me, bringing them into this thing that is so new. I really value that. And I hold that very close to my heart and very special because it's terrifying. I, even in the paperwork that I do with clients, we talk about benefits and risks of counseling and I use the metaphor of like, you know, sometimes it gets worse before it gets better.

  And a good metaphor for that is. If you were building a garden in your front yard, what would you do first? You would pull up all the weeds, the things that you can see, um, then you're going to dig a little bit deeper and you may hit like the tip of the rock, but then it's actually like a big boulder. And then maybe there's a treasure chest under there that you didn't know, like that was buried.

  And so you pull all that up and then ultimately that, that can be scary. Sometimes there's things that we didn't even know that we would, the territory, we didn't even know what we'd get into. And then you put new soil on top of it, new seeds, and then beautiful things can grow. So I lean into that metaphor a lot.

  And my hope is that that makes clients feel, you know, I like to under promise and over deliver. And I feel like some of my more resistant clients or clients that come in being a little unsure. If I set that expectation for them, they're a little bit more open to. What it's going to be like, absolutely.

  Yeah. There was so much beautiful stuff there. And what you just shared. Um, I think that's a big piece of it when you grow up as a parentified child. Um, and for those who don't know what that term means, it just means like where your parent kind of expected you to take on responsibilities that really they should have been taking on.

  So that could be emotional, physical, like you were the one who had to cook meals because. Your parents weren't home or, you know, you had to, um, mom had depression and like she relied on you to make her feel better when it should have been the opposite way. You really learned to like, not trust authority, not trust adults, and you kind of over rely on yourself and you think you trust yourself a whole lot, but then you realize, like, actually.

  There's a very low level of like confidence in your own abilities. Cause you really didn't have someone to show you that they believed in you. And so it's just, it's not very sustainable, which is where therapy comes in. But as you were talking, I'm like, okay, that's the difference is like, To be able to have someone who is so confident in your ability to change.

  So like when your therapist, like they know the process, they know they're confident in the work that they do and they know that it produces results. They know that it produces. You know, positive change, they can then they step in and they act as that kind of adult figure and that can be really hard again as the person who had maybe grew up parentified.

  Um,

  but I think I love that you're bringing that up too because I feel like. I have and with some clients, it's like, very helpful for me to be very direct with them and to explain to them. I don't know how to just I always say, like, I'm a woman of energy. So I don't know how to describe it. But as a therapist, it might resonate with you.

  It's just when I. I can do it virtually too, but like, it's just with people specifically, especially like when it's in person, when I'm kind of doing a consultation or certain clients that I meet with, I will share with them that, you know, it's really important in the work that we do together that you feel like I am holding you, you're not holding me because I get a lot of clients that come in where, whether it's the trauma history of the parentification where they're, you know, taking on roles as a child, you know, That are more adult, like, and their whole life has spent sort of being in charge, being in control, coming into the therapy space, that power dynamic is a little bit different because it's not therapist is all knowing and you know, nothing, but it's essentially like.

  You know, a little bit, I sort of offer is like a little bit like teacher to student. There are cases with some clients where it's more helpful for them to teach me. And so I will like kind of create a dynamic where it's more them kind of leading the way and, and I'm mindful that I want to create a dynamic where.

  From a self confidence perspective, from, you know, from a self esteem perspective, I want them to sort of lead me in a way and let them take charge. But also it's the other way around where a lot of my clients who are used to being in control, being the leader, being, I sort of offered them, look, Hey, I want this to be, if this is the one place in your week where you feel like I'm in control and you can just be, and just.

  Kind of sit and just take in that's really important for me because I want this to be a place where you feel like you can just kind of sink down into into the, the couch and just sort of. Not feel like you need to be in charge in in control or in in charge. I just want you to like ride the ride and I'm like very direct and specific about letting them know that that's the dynamic that I want to create with them and that they should feel like that probably brings up a lot for them.

  But like, in a way, that's kind of the goal here is for them to create a space with me where they feel like they can receive a little bit more rather than. Be the leader, feel like there's all the pressure of taking control. And a lot of my, like, you know, more like high anxiety, high perfectionist, um, you know, um, high up in their career.

  Usually that's why I'm very particular and very straightforward about the dynamic that I think would be helpful for them. So I just like, tell them like, does that, does that make sense?

  Oh yeah. Yeah. And when I finally found my own therapist that was like willing and able to kind of do that and set the tone and.

  It's so interesting because as someone who grew up pretty parentified, it's, um, again, you don't trust authority, but when you have someone who is authoritative, authoritative, and also just so warm and so compassionate and so like that, that's the, that's like the key. That's the, you know, you, you have to have that whole

  opinion.

  Yeah, yeah, totally. I love that. And then

  I've not been very explicit again about like chronic illness throughout this episode, probably because I live with chronic illness on my head. I'm like, I see how this like, I'm and I'm not verbalizing it very well. But I will say people with chronic illness, because we have all this stuff in our body that hurts.

  And as unpredictable and, you know, scary, all of the things that we're talking about attachment stuff, um, you know, uh, everything that can happen to someone without a chronic illness, basically that, that level of stress just exacerbates our pain. So it's not that our experiences are so drastically different than somebody without chronic pain and chronic illness.

  And this is actually something that I try to help my clients eventually. Later on in the process, we start to work on finding more similarities with their friends and family and co workers without chronic illnesses. In the beginning, we, again, that whole meeting you where you're at, like they need to feel seen and heard in their illness.

  And then we eventually kind of start to de identify with that illness. Um, and I, and I, I have clients who come to me and they're like, I know my, my illness is like, it takes over my life and I don't want it to. So help me with that. And, and even then, like, I still have to kind of go into a lot of that validating of where they're at, because they haven't had a whole lot of that.

  And then we kind of work on again. Now, how do we. Um, find ways to be a human, not a chronically ill patient. And so all of this just, again, it's chronic, the chronic illness piece is. All of life's normal stressors feel a little bit, they feel heavy, they feel painful, they feel scary because there's then this physical component.

  So I think you had asked me earlier, like, go ahead.

  Well, I was going to offer, I even, you know, when I have clients that come in with something mild pain, like a physical pain, an injury or a headache or something, that's not even chronic, always sort of, we're sort of talking about as like, If you have a, uh, like a physical pain or ailment, it is so distracting.

  It's hard to even tap into your emotions because you're just so focused on the physical pain. So when I think about the type of work that you do and kind of doing both and sort of creating this way for both to exist together, I just think that's gotta be incredible work. It is, it is.

  It really is because, uh, and it just helps like solidify the fact that the mind and body are not.

  Two separate things that they're just one, um, and, you know, our Western kind of culture has separated the two and it can actually be really, really hard for clients will be like, no, but this is a physical issue. It's not. It's not like I'm like, I know, I know that we are. We are definitely on the same page here, but the words that I'm saying don't make sense because I'm not.

  They come from such a disconnected view of their mind and their body, that those are two separate things. And they're, they're just one. So there's a lot of education around that as well.

  Yeah. Yeah. Usually with the, so I like to start with all my clients. I'll start with just, I say like trauma psychoeducation to just like helping them understand how, when you experience trauma, what happens to your brain and your body.

  And I'm always talking about like our brain and our body are. House like connected. This is the way that they should be there fused together and sort of the example I offer is like your brain sits in your mind and in your body. So they're one and you can have a, you know, if you're watching, um, something sad, like the notebook and your mind says that's sad.

  And then you cry. It's like a physical response to an emotional feeling. So that's how they work together. And when we experienced trauma, it is the, I offer at times like the un fusion of your brain and your body, just because your physical body remembers everything and the, your mind does not. So they're still together.

  They're always together, but not having the memory to pair with the physical response is incredibly confusing. So I'm always using the like together, fused and how, you know, how they work. So that resonates with me a lot. Exactly

  right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a perfect explanation for chronic illness too. Um, because you, it's such a good example, like just crying at a movie, uh, and when you cry and then that, you know, certain chemical reactions happen in your body.

  And if that certain chemical reaction happens. And it just happens to go past, you know, your joint that is you have arthritis and your joints hurt now just like that sensation of sadness that that goes in the neural path, like through that neural pathway in your body if it just happens to touch that area of your body, it might.

  It, it might not even be like full on painful, but the memory of pain, it just sends all these physical pain, um, receptors to that part of your body. So again, this can sound so much like, oh, so I just, I'm thinking this is sad. And then that made my pain worse. So like this, this really is in my head and it's like, no, like there are physical pain receptors that happen and, and they go to that area of your body in an effort to protect it, to kind of give it pain signals to say, Hey, don't do this.

  You don't do that. So. A big part of our work is Trying to make sense of these pain sensations and take the fear out of them when appropriate. Right. Like a lot of these apps like curable and kind of some of the, there's like these, a lot of like pain reprocessing apps that are out. And I, I've had clients and other therapists have like great success with it, but I think the missing component, the people who are successful know this, the people who go through this, these apps and are not successful.

  I think it's for this reason, because. They're missing the piece of pain is appropriate, like how to know when your pain is appropriate. They kind of just attack pain as like, this is a fear response. You know, your pain signals are going off and then you kind of just learn to sometimes even separate even more and be like, Nope, this pain is just a fear response and blah, blah.

  And it's like, Okay. That might be helpful in some situations when you really are maybe in so much fight or flight that, you know, every tiny little sensation is an excruciating amount of pain, but at some point we also have to take a look at what is appropriate pain and what isn't. And no one can write down a list of here's what appropriate and here's what's not.

  It really is an internal self exploratory process.

  Yeah. It's where art comes in. That's what I was going to offer. It's like, you know, qualitative and quantitative. It's like art is intangible. It's a feeling. I always say I think in pattern and feel in color. And even in like grad school, we took, you know, it's kind of a double edged, it's like art therapy.

  It's so intangible. And it's. You know, working with the nonverbal, we say it's a bottom up approach. So like, whereas a lot of therapies are, you know, attaching words or using your mind or cognitive behavioral therapy, replacing positive thoughts with negative thoughts, or really using your mind as a tool, our therapy, we say is bottom up.

  So it's starting with your heart and starting with how you feel and then creating a verbal explanation or thinking about it after that's like the afterthought. Um,

  yeah. And to that point, I will just add because again like this conversation I think can sometimes get into like, so I do talk a lot about like making meaning of our physical sensations meaning we get to kind of control the narrative rather than it being this fear response from your brain saying.

  Pain is bad. And now we're like in excruciating pain. Um, it can, when we started to go the other way, it can sound like you're saying again, like, well, it's your choice to like, think this way or think that way about it. And it's like, no, when we're learning through this exploratory process, we just get a felt sense again, like you, it's not very cognitive.

  We just get a felt sense of like, yeah. Ah, this pain is actually like a fire alarm. Like I actually need to go to my doctor about this versus, Oh, this pain is like this kind of temporary, just like little shoot up of pain that is happening for whatever reason. I don't know the reason I don't need to know, but I can tell from the felt physical sense that.

  This is an okay pain versus like a, I need to go to the ER kind of pain.

  Totally. And part of that too, I feel like taps in a little bit with when I'm working with anxiety, I always offer that, you know, intuition and being able to connect to your intuition, dealing with anxiety can really get in the way of that.

  Almost like I think of it as like a thermometer and then like a cloud that like, Gets in the way, like you can't, it's not it. Anxiety really gets in the way of us being able to tap into our intuition. And sometimes our intuition is really what we need to kind of harness ourselves to make a decision, to just do even like a small thing throughout the day to know if I should meet up with this person or I shouldn't do this.

  I feel like your, our intuition is so intrinsic to who we are. And that feeds into a lot of like the self esteem work and your identity work, creating a sense of. It's really important for me. Like typically the more I can hone in on the anxiety and sort of help them understand ways in which they can cope and reduce that helps open up their ability to connect to their intuition.

  And then they're able to make these more like sound decisions more easily that tend to lead them into really positive places. And although I don't work with. Somatics and the way that you do or as intensely, my clients are always blown away when we're talking about ways in which your physical body is impacted by trauma or anxiety.

  And so I'm always sharing with them. I'm like, it's very common and very normal. If you deal with anxiety to have bowel issues, stomach problems, IBS, uh, because imagine when we're anxious and we're worried, we're tight. Like we're constantly holding our body and in very tight ways and that in and of itself, like when we're not relaxed, creates physical issues.

  With our stomach. So just normalizing that for them, which is such like surface to me, just sort of like really obvious stuff can be so incredibly helpful for them and helps them then start to really tune into their body to use those messages around. Am I feeling anxious right now? And then we can hone in on where you're feeling anxious.

  And if it's held in your neck or in your shoulders, that can be a really good clue or a really good message for if I'm feeling this while I'm talking to this person, I wonder if it's this person or this relationship that's making us anxious. Like, how can we use our body as a tool to hone in on. Things like anxiety.

  Absolutely. Yeah. And when you live with a chronic illness, there is so much of that, like there's that work that we're doing. And then there's just this little bit of added complexity where the fear that you're feeling or the physical sensation that you're feeling, it literally might be because of this conversation you're having with your boss that makes you feel anxious, but then it touches on.

  Let's say you have IBS and it kind of, you feel it in your bowel area. Well, then now there's the fear of the chronic illness that's playing a part and it's coupled with the anxiety about the boss. And then, and then, you know, a lot of clients will say like, this is something I work on a lot with clients too, is like actually not.

  Not giving your reason for why you can or can't do something to your illness because not because it isn't real or valid, but because there's so many different parts to it. And when you say like, oh, I can't do this because of my illness. It sets you up for a few different things.

  One. Tomorrow, when you are able to do something that you like your friends and family are like, Oh, I thought you were sick. I guess you're not really sick. That's an experience that a lot of my clients have had. Um, so there's, that's one reason to like, not really use it, but to, for yourself to feel validated.

  And when I'm stressed, my IBS flares up when I'm stressed, my joints are. And so what is stressful in my life? And that exacerbates my pain. It doesn't cause my pain. It doesn't mean it's not real. It's just something that exacerbates it. Um, and then that exacerbates it. But now I have, again, like I said earlier, this kind of other fear, this fear that comes in of just the illness itself.

  And it's just a very complex system, which is why it is trauma therapy.

  Um, yeah. Yeah, totally. And I, even this touches a little bit for me in terms of just really honestly, like general diagnosis. So I can diagnose in the state of Tennessee with my licensure, but because I don't accept insurance, I don't typically have a reason to do it.

  So when I sort of explore the diagnosis piece with clients, I am not the, the idea again, kind of back to like the label for me, I also am, I'm just very conscious of like. Whether or not I feel like only if I feel like it's very helpful to a client to have a diagnosis, honestly, most of the time I kind of steer away.

  Um, kind of for that reason, this idea of like one, I don't love the idea of them being boxed in or labeled as dealing with something specific because people are ever changing. And I also feel like It can be used in a way of starting to say that I can or can't do certain things based on the diagnosis.

  And I feel like that's quite limiting. So it's hard for me to put a label on anything where I feel like we're always changing, always fleeting. Things are always, pieces are always moving. For some people, a diagnosis can be helpful because it kind of feels like a relief. Like, Oh, now I have this thing that I can identify with and it's not my identity, but there are parts about it that make a lot of sense to me or provide a lot of like visibility or I feel really seen, especially if other people are dealing with them also.

  And it also provides like a course of action. Oh, okay. If this is like more kind of textbook depression, these are things that we know that can be really helpful. And so of course of action can feel really good with that. But other than like the few times where I feel like it's. helpful in that way. I don't really find it to be that helpful for kind of similar reasons a little bit as, as like the label and how that can feel kind of boxed in, or you kind of take on that identity and then it limits you in certain ways when all of us are in flux and especially specifically dealing with trauma.

  I always tell clients that of all the diagnoses in the DSM, a diagnosis. Uh, particular to trauma, like PTSD is the most, we say like healable, but it is what most people, the majority of people are most unwilling to work on. So if you think about certain diagnoses, like, um, schizophrenia, bipolar, like for example, like mood disorders, your mood day to day, you have to address that.

  Like you have to confront that because that's so important to who you are as a person, being able to hold a job, how you relate to people, having a diagnosis like that. You have to. You know, the therapy, the medication and maintaining that is super important. So it kind of forces you to confront that versus trauma is something that you can kind of like, you can work on top of it for a while.

  You can work underneath, you can bury it, work on the side. And I always offer, like, I totally understand it. Like who wants to come in here and talk about things that are. So upsetting, so terrible. So, you know, often life threatening. Yeah. Like I would want to work on top of it also. So of all the diagnoses, it is again, the most healable and we can really shift you out of that diagnosis into, um, yeah, like really healable work, but of all the diagnoses, it's what people are most.

  Most unwilling to want to work on. So I totally like to kind of validate that for clients. So like, it is really, really hard work, but also exciting to me and that we can, we can like move you out of that. Like there is work that can be done to sort of like, you know, again, make you feel in control of it versus it, you know, being in control of you.

  So that excites me of like, of all the work that I do, the trauma work is my favorite.

  Sam. And I think. That's I guess what still excites me so much about chronic illness is that it's something that people feel like I'm stuck in this and I have to stay in this forever. Um, and your chronic illness itself might not be curable you might be dealing with that forever but the level of stress and trauma response that you have around it.

  Remember, living with a chronic illness is inherently there are micro traumas that happen every single day in your body. Um, that part can change. So, yeah, I love this. Um, is there anything else that kind of comes to mind art therapy wise or anything that you kind of want to just leave listeners with.

  I'm trying to think.

  Yeah, I think back to the piece that I talked a little bit about the different modalities of like being trained and using the different modalities of art. I wanted to offer to like a counter example. So, for example, like we're more restrictive materials are helpful for clients with anxiety. Using those fluid, um, materials with like grief, for example, is really, really helpful.

  Because if you think about like watercolor is literally using water and often with grief, there are literal tears, but also it's a lot of, you know, uh, flowing through different stages of grief and flowing forward and taking steps back using watercolor can be super helpful. That's just an, like an example of, um, Times where it's really helpful.

  And then also, um, even times where we want to, when you talk about like a trauma response, being really, really mindful of the different, um, mediums that you're choosing, for example. Anytime that we're dealing with sexual abuse. Typically we steer away from things like clay that are typically like more wet and more, um, uh, um, more wet and more like kind of squishy.

  So that's an example of like, it really, really matters in terms of kind of what modalities you're choosing, depending on sort of what the client is, is working with is really important. Um, just wanted to, yeah, like give a counter example of sort of like how the mediums and different mediums can be used.

  Um, I was like to throw that in and then what else? I think that might be it.

  No, that that all of this was great. Um, I don't have any questions because I feel like we really touched on a lot.

  So thank you. Thank

  you. Yeah, thank you for sharing the somatic piece. I, I know that usually sometimes where if it's like a similar orientation or modality, it's easier to have things kind of bounce off. But honestly, I'm learning. So much from you about the somatic piece and that work is just so again, as someone who specializes in trauma and trauma is held in the body, chronic illness, things that we hold inside are so important to have that element of working with that.

  And I've referred clients to, to somatic therapists and it's been incredibly helpful for them. So I'm in awe of like the work that you do in the, the, the way in which you do it, it's such a respect for that. It's really

  rewarding. And I feel the same way about art therapists, especially now being on the receiving end of that.

  It's like, it's such a beautiful modality that I'm really glad you gave the caveats that you did because it gives just a little, it gives like more insight into the process and kind of like, it's not just drawing. It's not just like. Put this thing on paper and we will analyze it, which I think is how people kind of look at it.

  So thank you so much for being so clear with

  that process. And I'm such a proponent too. I think sometimes when we think about different types of again, therapists, like art therapists and music therapists or somatic therapists, different types of therapists that do these really awesome, interesting things.

  I'm always interested in like the intersection of ways in which. We each kind of again, like take a little bit of all of it and use it in a really appropriate way. And I feel like the way to do that is to talk to the therapist and ask them, like, what are some ways that I can use that in my practice that are still safe and comfortable for the client?

  Or like, I just, I feel like I'm more open to kind of integrating those kinds of things. Whereas I think some people can be very boundaried in that work, which I understand why. So it's really nice. For me to hear also just taking me into like what you do and what can be helpful. And because I do some breath work or I do, you know, visualizations, which are things we can all use.

  So I feel like there's a lot of overlap there. Yeah,

  absolutely. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Meg. Is there any, you're seeing clients right in Tennessee, your license in

  Tennessee. Yes. I, yeah, my private practice it's Meg Beerman counseling and art therapy in East Nashville. And I am accepting clients at the moment.

  I, like I said, I see adults 18 and above and specialize in trauma, anxiety, depression, grief, and relationship communication stuff. And then the art therapy piece, if you're ever interested in seeing what art therapy is all about. Yes. I like incorporate that into my practice as well. Awesome. Thank you

  so much for being

  here.

  You're so welcome. Thank you, Destiny. Bye.

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Episode Summary and Notes

The Chronic Illness Therapist podcast aims to be a haven where those with chronic illnesses can feel heard, seen, and valued. We explore the realities of treating complex medical conditions, featuring discussions with mental health therapists and medical professionals. This podcast is your sanctuary, free from judgment or anyone implying that it's "all in your head.”

Meet Meg Beerman, a therapist and art therapist practicing in Nashville, Tennessee. She specializes in working with adults aged 18 and above, offering a unique blend of talk therapy and art therapy. Meg's approach helps individuals, particularly creatives and musicians, harness the healing power of art in their therapeutic journey. Meg's practice combines elements of psychodynamic therapy, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), and expressive therapy to help clients navigate trauma, anxiety, depression, grief, and relationship communication issues. However, she avoids taking on clients struggling with substance use or eating disorders and instead collaborates with additional support resources for those individuals.

Art Therapy and Transitional Objects:

The conversation starts with a focus on the use of transitional objects in art therapy. These objects serve as grounding tools, providing clients with a tangible connection to their emotions and the therapeutic process. The concept of creating "grounding stones," where clients paint stones with words, images, or text to help manage emotions like anxiety, nervousness, or sadness. These stones become powerful tools for self-regulation and emotional support outside of therapy sessions. Another example presented is the use of glass beads with affirmations glued beneath them. Clients select positive words or phrases from magazines, which are then hidden beneath the glass stones. This simple yet effective technique offers a source of encouragement and self-regulation in times of need, such as reminding clients to "just breathe.”

Embracing Change:

Personal growth can be challenging, especially for individuals who have experienced parentification as children. A significant turning point is found in having a therapist who is both authoritative and compassionate. This combination of qualities helps individuals break down their resistance and make positive changes in their lives.

The Brain-Body Connection:

Meg highlights the integral connection between the brain and the body. She described it as a fusion, where the brain resides in the mind and the body. Emotions and physical responses are intertwined, exemplified by the way tears can flow in response to sad movie scenes. Trauma can disrupt this connection, leaving the body with memories while the mind remains unaware and confused.

Chronic Illness and Emotional Responses:

Meg drew parallels between this concept and how chronic illness can trigger physical pain due to emotional responses. She explained that when emotional responses trigger chemical reactions in the body, these reactions can exacerbate pain in certain areas. For instance, feelings of sadness may activate pain receptors, leading to discomfort.

Understanding Pain Perception:

Meg emphasized the importance of distinguishing between appropriate and inappropriate pain sensations. Some individuals with chronic illness may perceive every sensation as excruciating, which can be distressing. Certain pain-recessing apps may oversimplify this, failing to address the nuances of pain perception.

Labels and Diagnosis:

Meg expressed reservations about labels and diagnoses, as these can limit individuals and their identities. She discussed the potential benefits of diagnoses, such as providing relief, visibility, and a course of action, especially in mood disorders. However, Meg cautioned against letting a diagnosis define one's capabilities, as it can be confining.

Using Intuition and Art Therapy:

Anxiety can obscure intuition like a cloud over a thermometer, making it challenging to make decisions. Art therapy, which involves nonverbal, bottom-up approaches, can help individuals tap into their feelings and use their intuition effectively. Trauma, such as PTSD, is highly treatable but often challenging to work on because it involves revisiting painful experiences. Overcoming the fear of confronting trauma is a crucial step in the healing process.

Conclusion: Art therapy goes beyond mere drawing; it is a profound and multifaceted modality that delves into the intricate aspects of one's inner world. The conversation also touched on the role of intuition and the value of art therapy in tapping into one's inner self and managing anxiety. The importance of choosing the right art therapy modalities based on the client's needs and the impact of different materials on the therapeutic process. This podcast showcased the power of integrating different modalities to offer holistic and effective solutions to individuals seeking healing and self-discovery.